Brian Stanley warns of 'tinderbox' apartments, urges committee visit

Thanks to the witnesses. The opening statement sets out the mess very clearly. In the last quarter of an hour I think you've articulated a lot of problems with it. Just I think in relation to Sam's case I'm kind of shocked what I heard you saying there and I don't know, as a committee, can we communicate directly with the Minister for Housing and Local Government in relation to that case? Because I think the concern I have personally as a member of the committee and a member of the Dáil is that we walk out of here and you know God forbid if anything happens in that building, I mean it's eight stories I think I heard you saying Sam, seven stories and you know what you've outlined is on the outside of the building, I mean it's a tinderbox. Sorry for cutting the clothes, I related that statement to the housing agency and the answer I got at a board meeting was, well they're not in any danger when they were the first day they moved into the building. And I was totally I think it would be a good idea for us to communicate directly. I think you know normally we don't normally we don't do that right but I think in this case you know there's a this is a life in that issue and I know Brian as well from Cluid and Pat you know you have all other cases but that particular case like it's just anyway just so that's on that. Just in relation to... I'll add all the time I think we'll take it but I think maybe as a committee we should we should go out and visit that. I think that'd be strong. Yeah it would be very instructive to also visit Clary and Quay because I would say we actually have some video footage of the fire and showing it's minuted, do you know what I mean, the actual spread of the fire. So it went, it started on the fifth floor and went up to the sixth and seventh floor and you could actually see the spread within a matter of minutes and it spread from one apartment to another within ten minutes. It's supposed to be 60 minutes and it had spread and within an hour, less than an hour it had spread to the other two minutes. And I think it would be instructive to look because it's only in the city centre just near the Liffey. I think you'd learn a lot from visiting Clary and Quay. Yeah, just the other thing Clary is that just as you're talking that it came back to me that about 20 years ago as a councillor I had a disagreement with the department over the divisions between, the partitions between apartments and in one major development in my own constituency where I was a councillor there was an apartment complex and they're separated by plasterboard. Right? And I argued this with the department because in my simple mind, I'm not a construction expert but I did work on construction, I know a little bit about it and I cannot see, to come back with all sorts of answers, how two plaster slabs could actually stop a fire quicker than a six or a nine inch block. And I just think, and apparently, and they actually informed me that we're going to continue allowing this to happen. You know, I just think it's something that should be clarified with the department. Are they still accepting, you know, separating apartments by plaster slabs? Well, my understanding is, Deputy, is that there has to be fire stopping in what they call the party walls between apartments. So there has to be fire stopping materials to stop the spread. It's also supposed to be under the floorboards, in the ceilings, in the external walls, in the walls between the apartment and the common areas, so the corridor or whatever, but also crucially in the service shafts. All the service shafts are supposed to have caps at the top and the bottom, so around piping and wiring to stop the spread. And actually, that's the thing that's most common. If you simply, and I think you brought the minister on a tour to your thing, you showed them you could literally look down the service shaft and you can stop the spread. and actually that's the thing that's most common if you simply and I think you brought the Minister on a tour to your thing you showed him you could literally look down the service shaft and you can see right down into the car park I think this is a real problem the interior barriers just come back just one quick and sorry about just a few questions because it's an issue that has come across a few times just in terms of the management companies 25% roughly owner occupation in terms of the board should the board be a quick answer from yourself Pat should the board be the volunteer members so the board at the end of the day I suppose the members decide who goes on it some are representatives of in some cases I've seen some are representatives of institutional landlords so they're not people who own you could have clued or you could have a council representative on it but you could also have a few oh absolutely like I certainly know somewhere you would find some of the REITs you know the real estate investment trust my experiences my experience is that the private landlords don't tend that's in office they don't tend to put anywhere so and of course you've outlined there's no training there's a question over you you stated in your opening statement that some of them were paying themselves I think I mean I think it's a good thing to have volunteers on it you know I don't think to be paid but and you outlined the financial challenges and I can see it as you're talking I can picture apartment complexes that were built during the Celtic Tiger that are now coming of age and the sinking fund just ain't there I think the sinking fund is a bad name for it I think you know repair and renovation fund or something would be better but that's the name that's on it but you know I can see this problem accumulating and I just want to ask you as well that the like the sheer numbers of houses of apartments that are involved the fact that we have 100,000 from the Celtic Tiger area alone mainly affected by the fires only 12% have had their defects remediated only 12% yeah I mean that's accurate I mean that's an absolutely shocking level and I think it's something that we need to deal with with urgency and I think just and the scheme is announced two years ago and there has been nothing drawn down as of yet I think there's a piece of work there for us to do on that so can I just ask in relation to the common areas is the windows counted is there a legal document I'm not I know people who are living in them have a relative living in one of these complexes but it's the windows typically designated as its common area that Brian move hallways stairs typically Stanley is a head lease that would govern what is the owner's management company responsible for what is the leasee or the owner in a lot of instances not every instance the owner's management company would have responsibility for the window frames just to protect the fabric of the building and make sure consistency whereas maybe the owner occupier would be responsible for the glass yes and the regulations folks that you talked about that are drafted they're with the Department of Justice at the moment because it's having to be transferred over to the Department of Local Government is that correct you said they're drafted three years but we haven't seen them yeah so the housing agency drafted three and a half years ago so I think it was February 2022 so yeah that's three and a half years ago they drafted regulations and these were provided for in housing for all they're there and they were to deal have you seen them the sinking fund issues have you had an input we've never seen them and there have been loads of parliamentary questions looking about these when are they going to be published and you generally get this thing because it was the split responsibility so the Department of Justice had and still has legislative responsibility policy responsibility lies with the Department of Housing so basically what you were doing was they were just back and forth between each other and so we're stuck yeah that happens if there's something caught between two apartments or banjacks no one is responding yeah okay so that needs to be sorted that's obviously a priority and they are there and with the housing agency I'm just surprised that you know that somebody from the sector hasn't had an input but look we'll take it so we don't know what's in them so we do need to see them and we need to see that are they up to scratch and you know folks like yourselves include and local authorities need to see them a question that I have is in relation to the oversight and the regulation role yeah because you know there has to be some oversight and regulation role and dispute settlement is there a role for local authorities because I just think that you know sometimes the things are handled locally because then because the local authorities are typically in a lot of counties including County Leach where I live local authorities have went in and they've bought four or five here and one or two there and ten there you know is there would the local authorities be you know a good body to have maybe in terms of you know when they do the fire inspections would it be you know would it be in addition to that would it be good to have their role as an oversight body in terms of implementation and oversight of regulations when we have them in place I think okay so let me answer shortly in two parts first part is the programme for government actually provides that to be a regulatory unit set up in the housing agency to begin the process of regulating owners management companies and the reason for that is they already have expertise in house in multi-unit developments including somebody who was involved in this sector who's an apartment owner who has done a huge amount of work in a voluntary capacity and is bringing that now to bear in the housing agency I could certainly see a role for local authorities working in conjunction with the housing agency you know in a sense of it's important to have a national body coordinating all of the information pulling it together and more to the point pulling together the learning from that because one of the reasons we're talking about getting for instance the annual financial accounts why that's so important is to see the size actually see the size of the hole in the sinking funds to see how much is actually provided I think that I could envisage a combined role deputy between local authorities and the housing agency could I just ask briefly maybe Brian in relation to you know the multi-tenure complexes which a lot of them are would say where your cells are in like fluid or respond or whoever's in there and there's 100 units and you have maybe 20 and just private landlords have 50 and then you have a minority of owner occupiers in that case what way is the voting rights at the moment do you win if you go into an AGM so you have 20 units do you win with 20 votes in your back pocket or do you win with one typically you should be going in with 20 since the MUD Act the MUD Act did quite a bit to kind of regularise that so it is one vote per one unit so in that example you gave I think you know that absolutely can cause issues and difficulties where people may feel like their vote doesn't matter a big part of the solution there is to guide support engage owner occupiers to become part of the board of that ONC so that they can see institutions such as AHBs are very well intentioned and want the best for the whole community