Rose Conway-Walsh: Opposes Statute of Limitations for Victims

I'll be very short because Chris is coming in after me. Minister, I think everybody on the call fully understands the implications and the responsibility that lies on your shoulders in relation to this. I want to ask you specifically, when you said about the ECHR, it being ECHR compliant, what particular mechanisms are available to ensure the implementation of the Stormont House Agreement from that aspect and also can there be, you know, continuous communication with the families because if we lose the relatives and the relatives for justice in this process, then I think immense damage will be done. I'll hand you over to Chris. Okay, sorry, Rose, is somebody else coming in? Have you there? Yes, Chris is coming in. I'm sorry, excuse me, I just, I couldn't hear you clearly. Go ahead, Chris, yeah. We can't hear you, Chris. You have to switch your microphone on. We still can't hear you. I can't hear nothing. Perhaps if I suggest, Chair, maybe that the Minister could start to answer some of those questions and then Chris, when he reconnects, can come in. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, no, I'm happy to do that if that's okay with the Chair. Yeah, no, that's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, just to, to, um, uh, to respond to, uh, to Francie in particular. I mean, look, um, I agree with you in terms of the need for a victim-centered approach. That's, that's what I think we managed to achieve. Uh, when I say we, I wasn't the Minister at the time, um, when, when Stormont House was agreed, but, um, but I can remember it well. Uh, and the, the idea was that we would try to have structures agreed that would allow families then to fit into different elements of that structure, depending on their stories, what they were looking for, what they wanted, whether that was essentially simply establishing truth, or whether it was pursuing, uh, a case for investigation, um, and, um, or indeed being part of, uh, essentially an oral history. Um, and, uh, so, you know, if there is a new approach being proposed now by, by the British government, well, first of all, that hasn't been published yet, even though I think many of us have a, have a pretty good idea what, what's in that, um, then I think the onus is, is on the people who are proposing a new approach to explain why, uh, and to, to make a convincing case that can, that can build consensus. Um, you know, I have said many times, both privately and, and publicly, I, I don't see, see the case for a statute of limitations, which many will regard as a simple amnesty. Um, I don't see that case adding to the challenge of legacy and reconciliation in a positive way, and that's why I haven't been supportive of that. Um, I think that in many ways, uh, introducing an amnesty or a statute of limitations will be seen by many victims as, uh, as a, a hugely disappointing and traumatic ending to a very long wait for justice, uh, where they, the hope of, uh, of taking a case successfully, uh, had been there and is now being removed. Um, I think many, many victims' families, and I've spoke to lots of them, are very realistic about what's possible and what's not in terms of having a successful case in court. Um, and, you know, but, but that's a different thing to actually legislating to prevent them having the opportunity at all, you know, which is what a statute of limitations does. Um, so I think lots of victims' families will accept that their case is unlikely to be able to contribute to a case file that can successfully result in a prosecution. There may well be some cases that can do that, by the way, and, uh, and that's really important, but for many cases that may not be possible, and we've got to have other mechanisms that can allow for, um, for, uh, evidence to be built up and for, um, for the truth to be told, uh, and, uh, for families to be given, uh, as much of that truth as is possible to, um, uh, to put together often decades, um, you know, after the event. Um, you know, I, I, I, I take the point in relation to the, uh, the 120 victims that you refer to, Francie, and the, the part of Northern Ireland that you come from, um, and, you know, you make the point, as I think I have as well, that, that many victims and victims' groups, including the Valley of Murphy families, uh, have expressed real concern at a move away from the Stormont House structures and process, because they felt that that was, that was, that was a, a credible way to, um, to pursue cases. Um, you know, your question, are the UK government just delaying? Um, no, I don't think they are actually. Uh, I think to be fair to the British government, they want to move this issue on. Um, the problem is how we do that matters. And, um, you, um, you, you, you, you, you damage rather than, uh, build relationships, uh, in the context of, of true reconciliation. Um, and, you know, when there has ever been suggestions that, that there should be, you know, a, a different tiering of, of blame or prosecution, uh, who people were, who broke the law and were involved in violence. That has, that has created extraordinary division, uh, and understandably so. Uh, and so, you know, in my view, that's why a court process and an investigation process where evidence is put together, cases are made for and against is still, um, a very important part of the, of the legacy process for, for many families. Um, does the Irish government, uh, are we in possession of papers in relation to the Glenann gang? I, I, I'm, I mean, I have actually, I have a good note here on the, um, Glenann gang, um, just in terms of the wider question. Um, the announcement by the PSNI on the 13th of November, 2019, that former chief constable John Broucher will lead an independent police team to, to conduct an analytical report on collusion into the Glenann gang series of cases was very welcome. Uh, during the BAIGC, I raised the issue and I underlined the importance of this process being supported, uh, in bringing its work, uh, to a successful conclusion. The government is supportive of facilitating this investigation subject to the requirements of the law, uh, as we have, uh, other, uh, investigative processes in Northern Ireland, um, sorry, as we have, yeah, other investigative processes in Northern Ireland, uh, chief constable Voucher is in a position to seek the cooperation of the guardee through the framework of the mutual legal assistance, uh, which underpins the excellent cooperation that exists between, uh, the guardee and the PSNI more broadly. Uh, and it's welcome also that chief constable Voucher has, uh, met already with many of the victim's families and that he has confirmed that he will conduct his work, uh, uh, in ongoing liaison with them. And it's hoped that the report being conducted by chief constable Voucher will, will contribute to the long process of justice, truth and acknowledgement, uh, of what happens, uh, in many of these awful cases where, where collusion was undoubtedly a feature. So, you know, we have a process there that I think people have increasing faith in, which is, which is, which is good. Um, Rose raised, uh, the issue of the ECHR. Yeah. So we, we raise, um, ECHR related cases all the time through the Council of Europe, um, uh, on the committee, uh, with the committee of ministers that actually meet there, um, and raise these cases in Strasbourg. Um, and, um, and that's, that's where I suspect any approach on legacy in the future may be tested, um, uh, to ensure that it is compliant with the, uh, the European Court of Human Rights. Um, and you know, that's where I think the, the right to the pursuit of justice for victims and their families, I think would be, would be, uh, a pretty important part of that consideration. That's what I'd say. Like, I mean, I can't give you a definitive ruling at this stage in advance of that, but from our experience, um, the, uh, our understanding is that the, that the bar would be pretty high to justify introducing a broad amnesty, uh, for a whole period of time, uh, of Northern Ireland's history, which was a very brutal and violent period, um, when so many families have been attempting to pursue a course of justice and truth recovery for, uh, for a very long time. But look, let's, let's wait and see where that goes.