Rose Conway-Walsh presses for Rights Bill and citizens' assembly

Thank you, Cathaoirleach, I think that's me. I found this discussion really interesting and nice to see you again, John. I know it's a while before the pandemic you were here in Leinster House and I thought what you had to say then was extremely interesting and obviously John as well and Anna. I really get what you say John in terms of attitudinal changes are more important than institutional reforms and I suppose what would concern me is that the focus here is particularly on institutional reforms and the fact that we have an international legally binding agreement that we all vote into on that basis. And I suppose what concerns us as a committee is in terms of the implementation deficit, if you like. So are we going to just keep moving on and on without really implementing what was painstakingly agreed, whether it be a new decade, new approach or the Good Friday Agreement? So are we running away from this? And I know what you say in terms of, you know, we should lean in gently, but I had to smile at that after 23 years, we should lean in gently. Maybe it's time for us to really grasp what we need to do because if we're looking at 23 years, my sons, you know, weren't born at that time. So we're going on to another generation and all of us here on the call have a real responsibility to make sure that it doesn't continue on for generations. We have to try and stop it at this generation. So my questions, I suppose, are in the first, you know, for all of you maybe, but John and John in particular, what are the main blocks as you'd see it to implementing the outstanding elements that are there and particularly in terms of the Bill of Rights? You see, we can talk forever and a day about outcomes and outcomes for citizens. But the measure on all of us for whether we're here in the Oireachtas or we're in the Assembly or the Executive is what difference does it make to people on the ground? So after all of those agreements, are we in a situation where, you know, the mother in Shankill Road or the young person has a greater opportunity there in the Falls Road or whatever? Are we opening up things for them or are we closing them down and are we almost using them as to build up an industry around talking about it without actually getting in there and doing what needs to be done? Because for me, even going through new decade, new approach, all of the answers are there. All of the things that we spoke about in terms of the societal wellbeing and all of those things. We don't need to reinvent the wheel around it. And I very much appreciate, I'm coming from Mayo, so I'm coming from an outside view of this. So I stand to be corrected on most of it for all of it or all of it. You see, the thing with the Citizens Assembly, I think there's real hope there. There's hope for us and there's hope in the sense that the elements that could, if it was to be done right in terms of the terms of reference and the makeup in particular, makeup in particular and have an inclusion of voices there, that this could, the architecture that we talk about here and the structures could be examined within the context of the other things, you know, the rights based of the health, the education, which I have a special interest in and all of that. So it could be discussed within that, regardless of the constitutional preference. Like we have to remember, you know, we can have over consultation as well and over engagement with civic society. Right. In 2019, we had a thousand citizens from across the country, right across the island, writing to the Taoiseach and to the people who were responsible for implementing these agreements to say, we want to say basically what they wanted in terms of a citizens' assembly. And the Taoiseach at the Taoiseach at the Taoiseach agreed that he certainly would not rule that out and engaged with the thoughts of it. So I just think it's time for us, and I want to know what you think, that we just can't keep pushing the can down the road because, and he said within that, that shouldn't be a threat to anybody's constitutional preference. Because the Taoiseach at the time even said, the Good Friday Agreement explicitly recognises and validates the legitimacy of both constitutional conditions. And I suppose I would even say to yourself, John McAllister, you know, it is very difficult to hear, you know, what are the merits of the union, you know, other than identity? What we want to hear, and I think as Republicans and as nationalists, and just as everybody across the island is, you know, would the citizens' assembly not be an opportunity to say, this is why we really believe that the six counties should be a part of the union rather than Irish unity and we could have the discussions there. And I'm sorry I've gone on for so long, but I just want to get back to it. So basically the Bill of Rights, the assembly and the political attitudes and whichever one of you first. I know there's a lot there and I really thank you for having this discussion. Oh, Michelle, sorry. I'm going to come in just very briefly too, because I'm delighted to see the three of you here today and not to pick out anybody in particular, but John McAllister and I grew up on the assembly and became friends. And while we didn't come from the same constitutional point of view, we became friends and we had a huge amount in common. And I just want to add to Rose's point. Every single day I meet people from a unionist persuasion who are totally exasperated and frustrated by the lack of planning and the lack of engagement from political unionism. And this is, Fergus made the point earlier about political unionism. Civic unionism is way ahead of political unionism. And there are lots of people who want to be involved in how we can create a better society for all of us on the island of Ireland. Brexit was a game changer. Farmers in Fermanagh, South Tyrone are deeply frustrated at the challenges that they face as a result of Brexit. And they do want to be involved in that discussion. And like Rose, I don't think 23 years we should still be tiptoeing around these issues. We have a responsibility now to build a future where we can do away with a lot of the problems of the past, that we can work together and build in Ireland that everybody has their place in. And I have no doubt, people like John, within unionism, there are very many courageous and visionary people who would see themselves as unionists, but know that the union doesn't offer them that much and want to be involved in the discussion about what the alternative is. So I appreciate all of you coming today, but especially good to see my old buddy John. OK, there's about three minutes left in this slot and then we have about 15 minutes left altogether after that. So if we would have the replies to those excellent questions, Sarah. Can I, Chairman, respond to both Michelle and Rose? Please do, yeah. I met Rose at the Belmoral show a few years ago. And my good friend Michelle, that should certainly kill off any chances of a political comeback. If this is broadcast or is there any audience out there? Oh dear, even with 23 years after the agreement, that might be a bit much. I suppose a few points, maybe both following in, Chair, from your own comments around the Forum and Rose's comments. I suppose it's looking at the Citizens Assembly. Yes, I probably wouldn't start off with discussing Irish unity like John Tong or indeed the merits of staying in the union. Because there's a huge swathe of issues that we need to look at and we need to be addressing. We need to actually be making Northern Ireland work. No matter whether you want to stay in the union as I do or leave the union as Michelle would like us to. You know, the Assembly doesn't debate very often the merits of staying in the union or the merits of a united Ireland. The vast majority of the Assembly's time. And it's one thing that the Assembly, as a legislative institution, has actually been quite good at legislating and putting through. John mentioned the figures of how much legislation went through the Assembly in the 907-16 period. You know, even when I'd been sitting on the Health Committee with Michelle, we would have been talking about issues about services in South Tyrone Hospital or Daisy Hill or Craig Avon that affected all our constituents. Underachievement and underachievement in education. I always knew that there would be as much support from members of Sinn Féin and tackling underachievement in places like the Shankill and the Falls or in Protestant working class areas. There was a real hunger to actually address those to way upstream and early intervention. We've talked a lot about that in the Assembly but never really started to deliver. There would be a plethora of issues that any Citizens Assembly could start and really unpick and help even just that policy development that Anna has talked about, you know, right through this morning's presentation. And I think all of those things are worth doing. The merits of the union, Rose, where do you want me to begin? You know, I just think it's a very good product and well worth selling from one of the world's largest economies. And need I say any more than the National Health Service? You know, it's a fantastic job even looking after the level of the vaccine that rolled out in Northern Ireland across the UK has been phenomenally successful. And that is one of the big advantages of having a dedicated public health system. But I'll not overdo it too much. But it's all of those things around the issues like the Bill of Rights. It is probably, Rose, getting at times the political will. And sometimes when the pressure's on, yes, we can get an agreement, but then we can quickly move away. And, you know, without naming parties or anybody, that, you know, there was probably enough guilt on all sides of things not totally, totally backed by other, or people slightly moved away from different positions when we get going. And it's almost like keeping the train on the track and hoping that none of these things come and derail it. But over some of that policy stuff, the bread and butter issues, I do think there's a huge appetite. And on some of those issues, there's a much more unity of purpose between the parties than sometimes the opening labels or their party websites or the party mantra might suggest. Thank you. Thank you.