Rose Conway-Walsh Raises Alarm on On-Campus Teaching Variation

Thank you. Minister, why is there such a wide variation between the amount of on-campus time that students are getting in the different colleges and universities? Students are coming back to me saying they're paying full fees, they've paid for their accommodation up front, they were promised an experience, they were promised it by yourself, and now they're finding that they're one, two, three hours a week, maybe as little as that, even in terms of their study time, and it has to be sorted. Thank you, Laura, for the important question. I think the first thing I do want to say is that we've seen a very, very significant level of reopening of our third level, and indeed reopening is the wrong phrase, because as we all know, it never closed, it just moved online, and people worked extremely hard to provide education in that context. In many ways, 500,000 students who did in further education and training and higher education was probably the single biggest movement in terms of reopening of adults since March 2020. It's been quite massive, really, and I want to thank everybody who's worked so hard, the student union bodies, the management bodies, the public health officials, particularly Dr John Cudahy, who provided us with our public health advice, all my own officials, the ETBs, and everybody else. Our colleges, Further Ed, Higher Ed, our training centres have reopened, they've reopened safely, and so far things are going very, very well. Hundreds of thousands of learners have returned to on-site activity. Recent figures provided to my department on 4 October show that the average daily student student presence on campus on campus at that point was 111,971 students, or 48.7 per cent of the student population, an increase of 420 per cent in the number of students on-site this time last year, in October 2020. So there's no doubt there's been a huge ramp up, and I know the deputy accepts that. I would also make the point, and I know you'd agree with me on this, that it's not just about the lectures, and it's not just about measuring the lecture time. Because from the social side of things, the college bar, the college canteens, the clubs, the societies, and also the libraries, the research facilities, the workshops, the tutorials, they're all back. The deputy is correct that there is a difference when it comes to lectures, and that is in line with public health advice. The public health advice is very clear that each institution needs to carry out a risk assessment in relation to its own situation. But what I would say is this, remember that probably next, with the 22nd of October, public health advice is likely to change again and change for the better, in terms of being able to socially mix. So I have no doubt even in one college, let's say Trinity, which have perhaps taken an approach where quite some lectures have remained online, they've made it very clear that when they return from reading week, there'll be much more on-site. So I'm very happy with the way it's proceeding, the general feedback I get is good. I do accept that it varies from site to site, but I do also think when we talk about on-site, we should talk about it in all of the round and not just the lecture piece. Barbara Harker. Minister, I think we have a problem, and I'm not sure if you recognise it, and I would ask you to re-look at it from the number of correspondence that I'm getting from students and from parents. I'll just cite one to you, maybe from a mother in Belly Bunyan, who has one student in first year in engineering, instrumentation engineering, and another one in third year in biomedical engineering. Both are paying full fees, €6,000 and €12,000 for accommodation. They are getting, one afternoon every week on a Tuesday, as in-person learning face-to-face at MTU in Cork on the campus. And then in, has IPD, four hours on a Monday and five hours on a Thursday. So it is not consistent with what you're telling me there, and I have lots of those correspondence, and I really think we need to look at it. And as you said, there is an opportunity coming up in a couple of weeks in October, and I think we need to use that opportunity to correct what's wrong, to ask for institutions, absolutely safety is paramount, but to do more. Some of them need to do more, to be able to accommodate students like this. I agree with a lot of what you say, except I just don't believe any institution is doing anything wrong. I just wouldn't use that word, because I genuinely believe everybody is applying the public health advice to their institution. I attend a meeting almost every Friday of a steering group, where we have input from around the country, from all the rep bodies, the student unions, and the likes. But I do accept, and it's a statement of fact, that there is a different approach in relation to lectures in different institutions, and that is following public health advice. I do also expect, to your point, that there will be a further significant increase as we arrive at the 22nd of October and beyond, because we know, and again, we need to get to the 22nd of October, but as of now, it's likely that there will be further easing of existing restrictions at that stage, which will enable people from a public health point of view to do even more. We are doing everything we possibly can in line with public health advice, so our sector has had 18.5 million free face masks provided, we saw 3,335 people receive vaccinations on campuses as part of our vaccination week. Next week, we will run a vaccination week again, because many of those students or staff might require a second vaccine as well. But I would just say, my experience when I visited many of our colleges is, students are getting back on campus for lots of things in addition to the lectures as well, for the sports, for the societies, to meet the friend for a cup of coffee. And I know from a mental health and wellbeing point of view, that was so right. But look, my aim is the same as yours. I want to see a full return to on-site education, but I do want it to be done in line with absolute best public health advice, and I know that would be your approach too. Yeah, Minister, and I'm too, I'm very concerned around students' mental health and wellbeing and what's coming back to me. And they do feel, many of them feel they have been misled and they are disappointed and their parents and families are disappointed. I would really ask you if you could send a communication to all of the third level institutions to ask them to do more and to ask them to have another look at this, because it's an issue. I wouldn't be bringing it to you here if it wasn't an issue that was arising on my desk and from the calls that I'm getting. Just to please ask them to use October as an opportunity for them to rethink, because many of the students are being told this isn't going to be looked at again until springtime. I want them to look at it earlier, to be able to make the changes that are necessary to give the best full experience to students who have missed out on so much for the last 18 months. Thank you. At that point I can agree with you 100 per cent and I will certainly do that. I will probably be meeting them again this Friday as part of our steering group. And I think the reading week or the mid-term break called different things in different institutions is an important moment in time to recalibrate, to take stock. My understanding is that's what many of the institutions are intending to do. I have cited Trinity just as one example, where I know they have decided to take one approach pre-reading week and another perhaps more liberal approach post-reading week. And I would say to all institutions, I mean we have seen very successful outcomes when students have been back on campus. And I hope that can build the confidence as well, because we have to, you know, we have to be respectful here, as you're suggesting, of students' health and wellbeing, staff's health and wellbeing, the public health advice. The fact that all the institutions are in different shapes and sizes, with different infrastructures, different levels of movement. But I'm very confident that there will be even more on-site activity. And I would just make that point, there's a 420 per cent increase in the number of students on campus this October than last October. But we're not complacent on this, we're watching on a daily basis. .