Rose Conway-Walsh: Urges publication of NCCA review on Leaving Cert

Okay, thank you very much and thank you to all of the witnesses. You will know this is an ongoing topic, but it is always interesting to hear the various different aspects, so we can put it all together to come out of this with some actions, because I think the key thing is that we have talked about this for so long, and I suppose in the first instance, Niall, to refer to your own presentation, you know, we need to be aware that in 2016 the UN Committee of the Rights of the Child, the UN Committee in their concluding observations on Ireland recommended that the Irish state needed to reform the leave insert, and I think that says it all, and the recommendations that it made around that, and it really is concerning that nothing really, or I won't say nothing has been done, but we really haven't reached any further in terms of addressing the issues that they raised, and the review coming up as you refer to, in your submission in 2022, you know, what excuses are the Irish government going to make, what excuses are we going to make as a state to not have addressed the really important issues that were there, and I don't know, Niall, maybe I will just ask you in the first instance, I mean, what is the defence of that, and also why the NCCA report hasn't been submitted, or hasn't been published? I certainly wouldn't like to be the person standing as defence for the Department of Education, but my suggestion is that the NCCA review was the action that was taken, but again, and they did a fantastic job, they were very inclusive, they included children with special education, they included parents, they included teachers, all sorts of groups over three years, and produced a report that sounds, from what I picked up bits and pieces of, as very, very very, very good, but it hasn't made it onto the table yet, so again, we haven't even started the process of negotiating to bring it forward. So, from our point of view, again, I see that everything that happens in the Department of Education is a compromise, and that's the wrong way to go. I think we could think of the gold standard, and then the first thing they think before they put out the gold standard is that we're going to have to negotiate with 17 different education partners, as Tanya said it, so we'll only go down as far as we'll only suggest maybe the copper suggestion, and then we'll negotiate from there, and hopefully get to silver. But in reality, we need to create a gold standard, new version, and that needs to take into account the voice of the children, and that's where we're missing at the moment. You know, again, I think there's a quote here, if I may use it from the Irish Times, that change looks set to be slow and modest in scope. This is in relation to that review. Likely a recognition of what happened with the ambitious JC Junior Service reforms, which ended up getting bogged down in lengthy disputes with teachers unions. Again, where's the student in the middle of this? Where's the children who are leading this, and why are we giving it back to them? So, from my point of view, I don't think there are excuses that are available to the UN Committee. The Committee won't stand for it. And we need to get that negotiations happening quickly. We need to get the review published first. You know, again, you start at 2016, it doesn't come through to 2030. That's a child who started in junior cert. Junior infants will now be doing a leave insert in 2030. That's how bad it is. So, for us as a committee here with the responsibilities that we have, who should we be, because I think we need to send a communication from this committee in that regard of having that published, who should we be sending it to? I assume it's, I'm not quite sure. I don't know if it's gone as far as Cabinet, but I presume it goes through the Department of Education. I'm not quite sure in the process on that, but I presume it's sitting with education to go to the Cabinet. I'm afraid I'm not well up on that. I really think coming out of today, we need to, if we have agreement from the committee, we need to send communication to them. Yeah, but I just think it's very important, because look, we'll be here in 10 years' time discussing it, you know, when your children are in leave insert, whatever. But it's just too serious to, you know, to just leave there. And I'm sure like all of these reports, they cost an awful lot of money, an awful lot of time and resources to put together. And then when they're not made public and they're not acted upon, like it's a complete waste of money. And, and I just get back to maybe just on that in terms of the money and with creating the level playing field that we talked about. I know when I worked in community development, one of the things I did was recognising that all, not all homes are conducive to children participating fully in the educational system, particularly around homework and different challenges and things that were happening within homes. And we set up homework clubs, specifically dealing with English, not English, but Irish and maths. So we'd have qualified tutors come in for, for everybody, but trying to get at those who couldn't afford the grinds and all of that. And like the government stripped away all the funding, stripped it off, didn't matter. And I really just think that is such a mistake in even many of the other community projects and stuff that has been done. You know, I hear so many reports about different challenges within families and for youth within communities. And there was very, very successful projects that instead of them being shut and closed down, should have been mainstreamed for us to do that. So, you know, it isn't rocket science. Maybe May, did you just want to say something on that? And then I want to get back to this year's Leaving Cert. I just want to jump in there very, very quickly, because this is something that it's just cyclical in how it comes around in a conversation. And what it is, is why are there outside supports needed for education? Why is there the necessity in deprived areas, depending on what socio-demographic group you come from? Why is there the necessity for extra supports there? We have a system in this country, it's called the educational system, and there are institutions called schools. And that is where you are supposed to get all of your support and everything. So, what are we looking at? Is it that there is funding going out to outside supports when the funding should be concentrated on the school? The school is a community. It is made up of the teachers, the students and the parents. And that community, to me, seems to be where an awful lot of the lack of support is going. Schools are crying out for support. We have voluntary secondary schools who are in the DESH system, but because they are voluntary secondary schools, they don't get the same type or same level of funding that an outside one would get that wouldn't be in it. So, there are all these discrepancies going on all the time. And what has become more and more apparent is that if, as a parent, you want your child to succeed and to get the points that are necessary, you must make the sacrifice in order that you pay for the grinds. And that hits the middle classes so badly, and it is such a struggle, that why is that a necessity when we already have an institute established called a school, which should be supported? No, I agree. Obviously, we need to look at the why, obviously. But in the meantime, I suppose it takes a whole community to educate a child. And I think that is not taken away from what you are saying, because 100% I agree with you. But where there are models that are working within communities as well, where you are bringing communities together. And it also can be, you know, in giving students a hot meal as well, even outside that setting when they leave school and that. So, there are different positives from it. Sorry. Just on the funding model, I suppose we have all accepted that people are starting from different starting lines in the education race. But you have spoken about funding being cut in different situations. And, you know, there are models out there that work. You know, our own programmes are seeing 85% of people going on to third level. It has been externally evaluated by places like NUIG. And we have never received any consistent state funding. You know, so that funding has been, you know, knocking on doors in the local community. It is fundraising drives. It is, you know, corporate sponsorship, philanthropy. But we have never had any consistent state funding for programmes which are, you know, shown to be effective and support not just the education and progression of young people, but their self-esteem, their wellbeing and, you know, helping them to live fulfilling lives in the now. Yeah, they are life-changing, absolutely. And even generational changing in terms of breaking cycles that need to be broken and all of that. I have used up my time. I have a lot more questions. Maybe we will get in again. Just briefly then, because we have gone way over time. I suppose Niall talked about junior start reform being confined and restricted because of disputes that happened. I think one of the key game-changers we need to see is leadership. We need to see leadership at all levels to see leaving start reform take place. And leadership needs to happen among the 17 education partners. They all need to be speaking with a singular voice. We need to see it across the political parties. I mean, you see that consistently that political parties are in broad agreement. And it is always a big question. Well, if the politicians think we should have reform, the government thinks we should have reform, why isn't it happening? That is something that needs to be unlocked and unpicked. But I think a key ingredient that we need to put a focus on is leadership and leadership among all the bodies in this space. Thanks so much for Thank you. Thanks so much,