Rose Conway-Walsh: Students' Voice, COVID Legacy and Assessment

Thank you all for your submissions. Professor Looney, I really get what you are saying in your paper, particularly around unlearning, and I think that is the big challenge for us, and you describe yourself as a veteran, and I suppose the challenge for this committee is how do we make this work, how do we make sure that we haven't even in our own time spent weeks, here scrutinising all this information and just we need it to be more than just adding to the information, adding to the conversation, we need to make something happen and we have a responsibility and fluidity in terms of where we are now and what has been presented to us in terms of COVID and how quickly we could make the changes when we really had to make them, so we have to grab that and let that be the legacy for us in terms of the legacy for us of COVID in terms of education into the future and breaking with our historical education system that does not serve us, which is not serving us. I really note what you say in terms of students may be more vocal critics than heretofore, and maybe it is, so it is the political, so maybe what I want you to talk to is just the political will, where that comes from in terms of the students' voices really being heard or how you can see that having an impact, an immediate impact or a midterm impact. Maybe just those two first and then I would like to come to Michael O'Leary as well. Michael O' Would you like to take your question? Michael O' Yes, please. Michael O' On the students' one, Deputy, I think you are right, we have seen the way in which what was achieved by students in Ireland during COVID around the examinations is gaining international attention because effectively while there were other parts of the world where students persuaded politicians to make changes, for example, in whether school-related data was to be Michael O' counted in exams was quite a big issue in Scotland, for example. Our students through mobilisation in the second level students union and through that petition of students presented government with a clear alternative proposal around offering students a choice. And they got that. It was not tenable for that to be set back. I think they have now tasted victory and they now know that student voice is not a token voice that it actually expects to be a voice at the table. And they actually showed that they were right. They offered something positive to the system. So I think they have an expectation this time that when it comes to discussions around where we go now that they are active partners at the table and they will expect that voice to be heard. And I think when you do listen to them, I think they strongly promote the idea of an assessment system that matches 21st century learning needs. I think their voice, it can be interesting to see whether that voice is positioned as a more conservative or more radical, but nonetheless, they do expect to be heard and they are a new kid on the block. What's going to be different this time? I think that's new. And so the Irish second level students, and to be fair, the current government has engaged quite strongly with students in those deliberative processes. I think that's important. On the political will, I think you have to, if you look out, if we listen to the body politic, I think for the first time post COVID, people are talking about the knowing, being and doing balance that Professor Collins mentioned. They're talking more about doing and being as well about knowing. If we listen to UNESCO, they're talking about being, collaboration, solidarity, the ability to develop resilience. All of these kind of personal attributes are featuring much more significantly, even in how parents talk about their own children and how children and young people talk about themselves. So I think those two are those two are very significant. And I think most of you who are in the leadership roles that you are at and close to your own communities are picking that up as well. So how do we how do how do you build on that to turn to bring that to the debate? I think that would be significant. But I do think it is the time is now. Yeah, so do I. I share that. And thank you for that. Professor O'Leary, I really note with interest what you would say as well, but I do think it's important. for the completeness of the committee that you are the pro metric, as you said, UCD professor that sells the computer based test development and delivery services to governments and to government bodies. And it's your company or the company that's funding you that's involved in delivering the driver driver theory tests. You might go back and have a word with them around that. I just I just think it I think it's important to note to note that. But I I really want to ask you around what you say you propose that students should self assess their own progress as part of it. And so how would this be incorporated into a statewide system? OK, can I can I deal with the pro metric issue first? First of all, it's DCU, not UCD. Oh, did you see you? Yeah, that's what I meant. All right. It's the same as Promethean. No, it's not the same. It's not the same as Promethean. Prometric are, as you say, are an international test delivery company. They're based in Baltimore. They support the chair in assessment in Dublin City University and also support a PhD and doctoral student. Now, can I just make the very important point for metric have no hand, act or part to play in any assessment in the Irish educational system and have never requested me to be in any way involved in our to say anything about about the educational assessment system. So in other words, all the research that I do in education, Prometric have no say in it. That's very important to me that that's noted. Thank you very much. Yeah, I thought it was important to give you the opportunity. Absolutely. And I appreciate the opportunity because it because it has been said publicly that I am maybe not a neutral voice. And that was something I did not appreciate because Prometric do not influence me in any way in terms of what I'm saying. And just the second thing about about about student involvement. And now the devil is in the detail, you're absolutely right. But I just wanted to get that into the conversation. I suspect that as Democrats, that it would be very difficult for anybody to argue that the students shouldn't have some say in their own certification. I think students are well able to self assess. I think students would have to be given certain skills to self assess better. But I also think there are areas of the curriculum and Professor Collins sort of highlighted that those skills that are just not easily assessed through exams or even assignments. I think about things like collaborative problem solving. I think of how important that notion is. It's it's listed. It's it's actually listed as one as as one of the working working with others is listed as a key skill. So the point I was trying to make in my submission is that I think teachers and students have a role to play here. The students should have some say I'm not saying that the students should give themselves a grade for working with others, but they certainly could be involved in determining what the grade will be in providing the evidence, having a debate with their teachers. And the second point is that I think groups of teachers should be making those decisions, not single teachers. I think that would get away from the idea that a single teacher is responsible for the grade. But that those skills in particular in schools that are cross curricular, that the history teacher, the geography teacher, the maths teacher, the physics teacher, the all the language teachers, all the science teachers, they see the students working with others. They see the students communicating and that as a group, say a student is doing six subjects in the Leaving Cert. Those six teachers might sit down and make a collective judgment about that ability to work with others. But I'm also saying that that should count for something that just can't be a token. It has to count for something. It has to count for progression into third level where working with others is a key thing that the people are looking for. So that's, you know, I'm not sure entirely about the exact detail of how it would play out, but I wanted to present it as an idea for discussion. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.