Rose Conway-Walsh Questions Lessons from Hybrid Leaving Cert Model

Good morning and thank you for being here again this morning. The first question I want to ask is what lessons have been learned from the hybrid model last year and what were the positives and negatives of the model and have lessons from the hybrid model fed into the work on reforming the leave insert system? That is my first question. Thank you very much for that. There are learnings from the hybrid model and the model taken together over the last couple of years. I might ask Mr Kenny to talk a bit more about some of the work that is ongoing around that. I think one of the lessons certainly around it is the issue of the great inflation, unfortunately, is that we sought as best we could in the circumstances we had in the time that we had to support schools, to support teachers around the estimation process. But I think it is very challenging. It is a very novel thing and it is a thing that is not within teachers training in terms of their initial teacher education or as part of their CPD to be doing formal assessment for state certification. I think it is something which we certainly in the context of any senior cycle review would need to reflect on in terms of ensuring that where we go down that particular path of some kind of form of school based assessment that we would provide proper support, guidance and so on for schools to be able to do that. Neville may just want to come in just to talk a little bit more about some of the formal reflections that we are doing as well around it. Thanks, Dalton. Indeed, just to build on those earlier points, I think one of the key points that we certainly have been reflecting on is the power and the strength of the collaborative approach that was taken to planning the initiative, if I can put it like that, that the hybrid model was last year and certainly that sense of collaboration is something that we are anxious to build on and to continue with in the context of broader senior cycle reform. In that respect, the advisory group on stage examinations, which I am sure we will touch on over the course of this morning, played that vital role. And within that, student voice was a very strong feature of that planning and that participation. And certainly the ISSU in particular played a very strong and a very effective role in representing that student voice and ensuring that it was heard. So in terms of the lessons for going forward, we would certainly be looking to continue that spirit of collaboration as we would develop new initiatives or introduce new reforms for senior cycle. More formally, we are currently engaged with the OECD to carry out a review of both the 2020 and 2021 approaches so that we can properly and fully capture the lessons that can be learned. And again, just to continue in the vein of wanting to include all of the perspectives, the OECD will very shortly be engaging with the key stakeholders in both the 2021 and 2020 processes so that we can fully capture the reflections and use them as lessons to go forward with. Okay. Can I just ask you as well, any given year, you know, where you have a hybrid model in one year and then in another year, you just have an exam only? What percentage of students, actually, what percentage of students from the previous year are we referred to grade inflation there and in terms of college places? What percentage of students are left over, if you like, from the previous year? Do you understand what I am saying? I am saying in terms of college places. Yes. So, I think the question, Geoffrey, is the numbers that might reapply. So, the numbers say that they did a Leaving Cert, for example, in 2021 and might now reapply to the CAO in 2022. We do not have those figures. I am sure we can get them from our sister departments, Department of Further and Higher Education, so we can get those to you. There can be a significant enough portion. Some will defer, which is different again, so they will have secured their place and in some instances, higher education institutions might allow them to defer for a year. That means they may be taking a spot, in terms of first year of undergrad course this year, but they secured it. But then others may have had a change of mind or dropped out of a course and then they reapply to the CAO back in February. But we can get figures from you. Obviously, the CAO process is currently underway at the moment. We will be closing. The normal process will be closing on the first of February. I think it is quite a high number. I think, for some reason, I seem to have 46% in my head of doing from previous years and I think the challenge is creating equality from one year to the next in terms of access for third level. Now, in some ways, improving the curriculum and the method of assessment is actually the easier task related to reform in the Leaving Cert, the harder challenges to produce a more equal outcome from the Leaving Cert. Is this a specific target of work being conducted that we have a more equitable outcome in the results of the Leaving Cert? And how has that priority been weighted against other considerations and what are the challenges there? I think that's a really interesting point you raise, Deputy. In fact, it's an experience that other countries have gone through. I think Scotland is an example of this where they undertook a fair degree of revision in their curriculum for excellence model and changed their assessment approach as well. But over time, made further changes that moved it back towards a more traditional assessment model. And the experience that they seem to have had is that some of the reforms that they'd have liked to have seen both in terms of curriculum, change of teaching in the classroom, encouragement of 21st century skills has not developed as much as they would have liked. And it seems from some of the the international writing about this, that unless the assessment model is aligned with the curriculum and the pedagogical approach, then the sort of reforms that we want to see and might like to see just don't carry through effectively. So we do need to think, I think, creatively about how we approach things like assessment. And while in more recent years we've seen with either new subjects or updated specifications to existing subjects, other assessment models coming in, which would be regarded as more equitable, because it's a different way to demonstrate skills, to demonstrate other competences beyond just the sit down, the traditional sit down and examination. So I think we do need to think about both in terms of new, not just new subjects, but looking at existing subjects and some of the quite, you know, the large ones that all students do, take English or take maths. There's nothing beyond the written papers at the moment and everybody, you know, effectively setting those, those exams. So I think we do need to think about other ways to, to develop other ways to, to demonstrate skills, and that would be a more equitable system. Okay. And obviously the challenge for us in, in all of these discussions we've had on the committee is that, um, they'll make a difference and the changes that are suggested, um, across the board and agreed will be implemented. How soon could you see that being done, that we will have a different form of, of leave insert from a department perspective? That's a hard question. Um, I think there can be at times, understandably a frustration over the time it takes to work through, um, subject, you know, development, curriculum development and new specifications. And particularly if you're changing assessment processes, potentially as part of that, or introducing new ones for new subjects that maybe haven't been there before. But I think we, much will depend on what, where are the areas of agreement, where the areas where further development work is done. Um, I think from, from the department point of view, we will be keen, we're conscious of the time it's taken to get to the senior cycle review report at this stage. Um, and we will be keen that we will be able to start seeing the change as quickly as we possibly can. So we'll have to think in terms of implementation around this as to, can we kind of kind of cascade effects of different, different reforms, different things happening on a, on a kind of road, a rolling out basis rather than waiting, you know, a considerable period of time for everything to fall into place. Yeah, I welcome that because I really think within the next 12 to 24 months, uh, people need to see changes. And I do welcome the fact as well that the student voice seems to be, appears to be having more of an impact now than it had heretofore. I think it's one of the good legacies that have come out of COVID. And obviously I hope that student voice, uh, will be heard over the coming days as well in terms of, uh, this year's leaving, sir. Go raibh maan goad.