Éamon Ó Cuív on new Defence Forces cyber command and pay issues

Question 79 is a question to ask. The way that he proposed to implement the recommendation of the Commission on the Defence Forces for the enhancement of Defence Force structures across the cyber domain, and you might tell us what the plans are in relation to cyber security and the role of the Defence Forces, which I think most people think should be central. Yeah, so there'll be a new cyber command within new Defence Force structures. That'll report into the Defence Headquarters, which will be headed up by what's called a CHAD, which is a military term for a Chief of Defence. We envisage that the cyber role of the Defence Forces will be increasingly important in terms of security. because, you know, people don't need me to remind them how vulnerable every country is to cyber attacks, but including this one. I mean, in the middle of a pandemic, we got a cyber attack of our health system, which meant that a lot of our hospitals basically were run on paper-based systems for quite a period of time. And it cost the State, I would say, well over €100 million to resolve that issue. So, there are vulnerabilities there that we need to guard against. Of course, the primary responsibility in terms of Department for Cyber Security for the State isn't actually the Department of Defence, it's the Department of Communications. But we work closely with the National Cyber Security Centre, but what I have to guarantee is that the Defence Forces and their infrastructure, in terms of security infrastructure, is fully protected against potential cyber attacks of our systems and our networks. And for that, I think we need more resources, more people, and an increased priority for the cyber domain, which I intend on pursuing, and in a way that is consistent with the recommendations in the Commission's report. I welcome that. I welcome that. I am wondering, in building up this cyber capability, will the reality of the need to attract really skilled people into this space in the military, will that be taken into account in laying out the type of salary levels and conditions that these people work under? Because if you want to attract and retain very high-quality people, you are going to have to pay the competitive wage for such people outside of the military. Yeah, I mean, I think on the wage issue more generally, I mean, let's not forget the Defence Forces are part of a public sector pay negotiation. Both PD Forra, who have been campaigning on this issue for years, and RACO, both asked me to facilitate the associate membership of their organisations with ICTU, for the purposes of this round of pay negotiations. And we have done that, which is a first, by the way, but we have done that. So, if the Defence Forces representative bodies are part of that ICTU structure now, well then, it is difficult to ask for separate treatment in relation to wages outside of the public sector pay deal. Having said that, we do need, of course, to attract the right skill set, particularly specialists, into Defence Forces. I think we'll see some civilianisation in some of this space as well, which I think can work, just like we've seen civilianisation within Angardashia Kona that's worked quite well. So, we'll be exploring various different approaches, but undoubtedly, the Deputy is correct, we need to get skill sets that can deal at a senior level with the cyber security threat. And we will need to compete with the private sector to get that skill set, which won't be easy. I take it you would accept that in the past, certain specialists had special salaries, for example, with medical personnel and so on, within the military, because otherwise they wouldn't have been attracted to work in the military because of the salaries available outside of the military for people like that. And can I take it that the rates that would be set for people like this with very high levels of skill will be equivalent to those in the private sector? I welcome the decision, and I want to say this on the record here, that PD4 and RACO could affiliation to IC2 in the way they did. I think that's a step forward. But one of the things you can't do forever where there is wage anomalies, just because there are issues of parity, it can't become an absolute rule that you can never change anything. Because then the past becomes the present becomes the future. And I think we have to have flexibility that where something needs to change, it can change. Thank you. Minister, to conclude. Yes, but it will have to change within public sector pay policy. That's not to say that we can't strategically use allowances within the defence forces in a way that perhaps gets better outcomes. The Commission does make some recommendations in that regard. But, yes, Deputy, undoubtedly we have to find a way of ensuring that we have a sufficient number of specialists, particularly in the cyber security space. But there are other specialist areas as well around engineering and navigation and various different other types of engineering specialties that we have to get into the defence forces across Naval Service, Air Corps and Army. And so I am conscious of that. And, of course, we will make a case to the Department of Public Expenditure if there are gaps that can only be filled by making exception. But we'll have to get approval for that. And that's never easy because it has a knock on impact in terms of precedent in other areas of the public sector. But, look, my job is to get the best deal possible for the defence forces and that's what I'll be trying to do. Thank you, Minister. Moving on to the last question. We won't have... ... ... ...