Éamon Ó Cuív on Museums, Dormant Accounts and National Archives

The Minister raised a number of valid issues, and on the other hand, I think we have to be cautious that the system will always tell you the problem. Not the solutions. And my belief is that there are two different roles, one for public servants and one for politicians. The public service is always to warn of, be cautious, and the politicians role is to drive things forward. And one without the other doesn't work. Now, in this particular proposal, yes, there are on the face of a lot of agencies, but some of the agencies have very, very specific roles. So, it was mentioned that, for example, the Director of the National Museum wouldn't have any expertise in art. That is why it is possible, under this Bill, to consult with the National Gallery. And that is where your art expertise has come from. When it comes to historic documentation, obviously the National Library is the place. So you are using the whole panoply of national institutions. My feeling is that what actually would happen is that some committee would be formed between all our national institutions, who mainly come under one Minister, the Minister of Arts, etc. and that that is how that would be pulled together. The second thing I think we have to watch is, the system is always concerned about innovative things. Rocking the status quo, moving away from the things they are familiar with. And I think we need to get a much greater sense of adventure. I have been brave, but this is purposely framed in such a way that by starting very, by an absolute obligation to start with the earliest ones, you are at the least risk of litigation or people coming forward and you will learn as you go along and you can always change laws. Resources. Resources is often an argument for not doing things. As this country has become more wealthy and the resources here are mainly, this is the interesting thing here, for the wealth that would be achieved, for the museums you could fill. You would need property, you would not need to buy the artefacts and you would need staff resources. But look what you could get. If somebody said to you, we will give you the Louvre, are you willing to staff it and provide a building for it, but we will give you all the paintings in it for free, would you take it or not? I would hope to think Ireland would. And I often think of how adverse we have got to spend money on culture, history, legacy, art. And I think of, for example, the fact that the Commission of Biologists that was set up in 1933, that is the Folklore Commission. There was money put aside in the budget, I think it was in 1933, to set up the Folklore Commission. At a time Ireland was very poor and they were involved with the land annuities dispute. But as a result we have one of the best collections of folklore anywhere in the world, that is now a priceless treasure belonging to the nation, that would have been lost forever if we had not done this. We have just come to the end of the decade of commemoration. And I would say at this stage the vast majority of the people have access to military archives, up and down the country, in big communities and small. But again it was in 1947, when the world was just surviving, coming together after the Second World War, when the decision was made to put the resources in, the human resources in, and they did not have all our computers in all the facilities, to get those archives together while the people were still alive. And it was a long-term project because the commitment was given that none of these would be open, as long as any person who had been involved was alive. And as we all know it was only in more recent times that these were made available to the public. So the State has, and in its early years, made some very brave decisions on long-term projects that would benefit the nation. And I believe that this treasure trove is a potential resource that other nations would look to and say, oh wow, that was clever, that was innovative. And that we would have probably wind up with maybe a museum building dedicated to the bank deposits. I was interested in one point you raised, Minister. I had two minds about the thing about the dormant accounts for this reason. I presume that it is not bank balances that are in the deposit boxes, that it is more likely to be notes. And in that event, and you get a note minimum 80 years, but maybe 100 years or 150 years, I actually think the notes as museum pieces would be worth more than the money, and a lot more than the money. And certainly I have a few old notes that I have collected for years and halfpennies and all sorts of things. I am not cashing them in with the central bank, I guarantee you. So I actually think that the amount of money that would be got out of this would be very, very small. Because I think in a lot of cases the intrinsic value of the historic artefact, even if it is currency of the time, would be worth more than the amount you would get by putting it into the dormant accounts. And I would suggest that the State would be more than willing to forgo the monetary value and leave it where it should be in some institution. What I would ask is this. I agree with careful consideration of things. A lot of time has already gone into this bill and there is a lot of preliminary work done. I have looked at all of the legislation, European legislation, Irish legislation and so on. So there was a very thorough job done on this. I would like to thank the two officials at Thermopylae who worked with me on it. But on the other hand, I think the system closing a thing down because it means work, because it means hassle, because it means you are making decisions, I think that would be a big tragedy. And I would ask here tonight that we proceed with reasonable speed, giving time for the various departments to have their input. But I think there should be a finite time put on it by Government, not by Campy by me or Campy by the Arachtas, to tell each Government department to come back with the issues that they have concern with in the bill. And that we would then be able to have a detailed, line by line, forensic examination of this bill. Lots of people, because of the shortage of resources in the Arachtas here, have brought in small bills. They have not had the resources that I have had, luckily, given to me by the Arachtas to prepare this bill. A huge amount of professional drafting work has gone in here, and I think anybody who looks at the bill would see how detailed that work was. And it reminded me of doing a bill when I was a Minister, and you had your own staff drafting up the heads, and then you had the parliamentary drafts people coming in, and over and back, and over and back, and meeting after meeting. And this bill was put together in the same Lego way that any bill is put together, by people who knew what they were at. And therefore, Minister, I hope that a process would immediately be put in place to start those discussions with the other departments, to get clarification on the issues of concern in relation to the legislation, because resources and mechanics would only follow when the legislation would become law. I think if departments put it into the black hole, it would be a tragedy. Because, as I said, if somebody had said that you suddenly had found a pit in it, that not only had, we say, a gold heart in it, and with some fantastic things in the National Museum, but had such a variation as is possible here, I think you would say, look, if it is only money and law, put the effort in, and human resources, put the effort in, and make it happen. And I believe this bill, if it is put through, will in time be seen as something really positive for Ireland. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.