Kathleen Funchion criticises lack of childcare consultation

Thanks, Chair, and thanks very much to the two speakers as well. Sorry? I got the order wrong, but you had started. Okay. Thanks very much, Deputy McGillis. You've both clarified that consultation was basically lacking, if it existed at all, particularly in relation to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. And while I don't know at this stage why I'm ever shocked by anything I hear in here anymore, it really is unbelievable to think that the Department of Children and Youth Affairs were not in consultation with yourselves. So I want to ask, as we move forward, and Ms. Nihay made the point that this issue hasn't gone away and is not resolved, what exactly can be done to rectify the situation for healthcare workers? And in particular, can I ask, too, for the childcare and early years workers as well, because I think one thing that this has shown us is obviously how invaluable the role of the frontline workers is, but also how invaluable our early years and childcare sector is, and it has been neglected, unfortunately, and underfunded and taken for granted for a long time by government. And I think this has probably highlighted it. So what exactly can we do, given that there is talk of a potential phase two in terms of, you know, there may have to be another lockdown. I know we don't know that, but what exactly can be done? Because I don't think anybody could sustain some of the examples that you've given, spending weeks without their children, having to ask family members, no one should have to do that anyway. But certainly that could not be sustained going forward. So what do you see as the solutions that would benefit obviously your members, but also bear in mind the people that work in the early years and childcare sector as well. And that's probably more relevant for SIP2, as I know they have a specific unit, the Big Start campaign that deals with childcare workers. Thanks. Thanks, Deb. I preface my remarks by saying I'm not the expert in representing childcare workers, but I will say this is that when the pandemic is looked back upon, there are going to be a number of areas that we will all assume were weaknesses in trying to respond to this particular crisis. And childcare has been one of those weaknesses in the sense of there seems to be no understanding of the essential need for a structured childcare industry where people who are providing childcare, childcare workers are properly paid, they're properly supported, and that, you know, that the service is available at the direction of the state to provide care, childcare for essential workers. And while we're hearing here today talking about health workers, there were also other workers essential to the economy. And they may have fallen into the same position of trying to provide various vital services, but not having the backup of childcare. I think the government need to have a stronger, I suppose, input into the provision of childcare. At this stage, what is happening is obviously taxpayers' money is being used to fund childcare, provide services. But when it came to the crunch on this occasion, there seemed to be an understanding that somewhere along the line, the government and the DCYA were remote in trying to encourage or be having any say in the provision or direction of childcare services. I think that's a weakness. It's a weakness that we have seen cause problems in the health service. But that's something that government will have to reflect on. In relation to the DCYA, it may interest the deputy to know, and I think my colleagues across the table here will convey, the issue, we didn't speak to the DCYA until about 12, 13 weeks into the emergency. That engagement was provided after the failure of the initial childcare proposal, which we knew from day one was going to be very, very difficult to implement. Just if Ms Nihie can answer the same question as well. Thank you, Deputy. Again, I think the most important aspect of the question is what are we going to do now? And I think we have clearly set out that the matters that can be corrected must be corrected. We have, we're awaiting a hearing at the Workplace Relations Commission where the trade unions and the health service have lodged a claim to have the annual leave and additional costs that healthcare workers endured by having to come to work and ensure that their children were looked after. So that's a remedy that shouldn't require a hearing before the Workplace Relations Commission, that the right thing should be done and should be done immediately. And second of all, I think that preferential treatment will have to be provided for healthcare workers. They are essential. We do not have a surplus of them. I have already set out how we're reliant on overseas nurses. We're not going to have the same numbers. We are going to be very, very short and anybody who can come to work must be facilitated to do so, but not at a cost to themselves. We have examples of where nurses, one nurse in South Tipperary General, for example, it cost her €150 a week more to go to work than what she actually earned. I would say a very sincere thanks to the people for their presentations and also for their ongoing work in this area. And not to single anyone out, but I would regularly call on Ms. Quinn and the ACP for advice, and they've always been extremely helpful and forthcoming. I want to just ask, I obviously have 10 minutes, so I'm trying to get as much in as possible. So firstly, to, I suppose, Ms. Quinn, Ms. Dunlew and Ms. Daly, do you feel that consultation was adequate? Was there consultation during all this with the department? Was there help in terms of CPD? We heard that this was supposed to be an opportunity or a time that staff could do CPD. Was that realistically an option for staff? Was there help and support around that? And has there been very clear guidelines around reopening, social distancing, pod sizes and all the stuff that we've heard about pods? Do you feel that that has been communicated adequately and in a timely manner by the department? That's my first questions. Thanks. I will take up there for you. Information has been confusing, conflicting regarding pods. We first heard about it when it was muted by a department, a minister for the Department of Children and Youth Affairs. It remains confusing, although we are getting clarity. I personally can say, going back to the previous question about capacity, that when I started phoning my parents, I was at maybe a 40% uptake. And the more, when I phoned each parent personally and reassured them and kind of explained to them how the new normal was to look, our uptake has risen to between 60% and 70% of our normal participation over the summer. Regarding CPD, coming from a rural background, yes, there were challenges. There were challenges regarding broadband issues. There were members of my team who would be maybe of a generation who weren't, say, computer savvy, which this became an issue for them. And we also had been asking for the release of the QRF, which we thought was a very, very valuable time. While we had 14 weeks of furlough and the QRF train, just so that all staff could be trained during this time period. That has yet not to be released to us. We were kind of disappointed at this missed opportunity. There, just regarding the CPD, if that's okay. So, as a HR manager with the Crown Support Group, and as Mary explained, we provide services to 11 community checker organisations. And within that, we very much welcomed the opportunity to maintain that relationship with the employer-employee. And that was all down to the negotiations that took place with Revenue, DCYA, that they could come up with a package that we could maintain the net wages for staff. In doing that, the CPD took place. We laid the roadmap. However, it was important we didn't lay that roadmap too narrow, because, as Paula just explained, broadband issues, etc., can be difficult. However, we have to identify that childcare has gone through a revolution over the past 10 to 15 years. Within that, childcare professionals who didn't have qualifications then had to progress to get qualifications, and in addition to that, do CPD in their own time. This was an opportunity. This negative turned into a positive for all of the employees. We have 323 employees within the Crown Group. It turned into a fantastic opportunity where they could choose courses, courses of interest to them, that they'll now progress with their career. So, as I explained to all of our staff, that won't only benefit them when they return on the 29th. That's lifelong learning, and it's been of huge benefit to all staff, and it's been commendable to everybody who took part. Okay, thanks. I'm just conscious of time. So, just moving on, and I'd like to include Ms. Quinn and Ms. Heaney in this, if they can answer this one, in regards to sustainability. Have you got concerns for sustainability of the sector going forward? Do you believe that there's a need for a sustainability fund to help facilities who have particular COVID debts? And do you see a possible solution as extending the wage subsidy scheme to all staff, and at the full amount, not the 85%, given that you might have situations now where providers may have to decide which staff come back if they're not coming back at full capacity? That seems to me to be a very unfair position for both staff and providers. So, I'd like to get your opinions on sustainability and the wage subsidy scheme. Thanks. Thank you very much, Deputy Function. There is no doubt that the level of investment, as I think I said in my opening address, the level of investment and the introduction of the wage subsidy scheme is a tacit acceptance by government of the precariousness of this sector. One of the things that I'm certainly very concerned about is that we will lose staff from the sector if we're not able to maintain the entire workforce in the sector. We need our staff to be available next Monday, on the 29th of June. We equally need them all to be available in September, and we want them all to be available in 2021. So, the entire amount of investment that has been made to date, we are certainly hoping in early chartered Ireland, that a new agency, which has been mooted in the next programme for government, will gather that funding together and repurpose it in a way which ensures sustainability and builds on increased investment. I think there's reason to be concerned about services, the confidence of parents, the confidence of operators and the confidence of staff is absolutely required. There's a lot of anxiety out there at the moment, and so seeing how many people arrive back on the 29th of June, the 5th of July, and every subsequent week will give more confidence, but I still think there's going to be huge issues of sustainability for the next number of months. And just to add to that, so in relation to the sustainability, while we hear that there was 75 million, you know, kind of released specifically for early years, the reality of that is that at least half of that was, you know, under the TSS, you know, the wage subsidy scheme, which is generally available to businesses across Ireland. Ireland, and not taking from that, that we are very grateful to be in receipt of that, it limits the actual money that was specifically, I suppose, a bailout support for early years. And so, I mean, when, you know, it's being reported that it was 75 million that was, you know, kind of put into early year services, there's huge expectation on service providers to open, to be open next week and to be available for parents. The reality is, there will be services who still will have sustainability issues, and if their staff aren't eligible under the wage subsidy scheme, the providers will have to find, you know, the kind of full level of funding to be able to pay the wage for those staff members. And that'll be, so if staff were on reduced wages, you know, or maybe they were, you know, out sick or had a leave in January, February, well, their average wage is going to be lower by revenues calculation than what their employer is going to have to pay them. So, effectively, their employer is going to have to pay them the full wage. So, all of those things are going to add to the financial outlay that the provider is going to have to make, while there is going to be limitations in terms of their income, because, you know, the capacity, they're not going to come back with 100% capacity of the children. And I suppose it will only be over time that we'll see how that capacity will increase, you know, across the summer. So, without a doubt, there will be sustainability issues, you know, and we are thankful for the grants that are available, you know, et cetera. But I suppose it has to be acknowledged that there are going to be huge challenges. Thanks very much. I also want to just touch on the issue of children themselves and the impact that all of this has had on them. And I'm just wondering, did Early Childhood Ireland, have they thought about looking into this and to see is there any sort of supports, maybe not necessary, that you can give directly, but that if there was funding available or we could look for funding, supports directly for children. And then, in case I don't have time, I want to also raise the issue that's been rumoured that there is a possibility that the Department of Children will be going and the Minister, the Standalone Minister for Children might be going. And I just, it's an issue I feel very passionate about. And I just like to hear what the panel or the speakers think about this, because I believe it's imperative that we keep a standalone minister and a standalone department. And in the week that's in it, I'm just going to take every opportunity I can to raise that. So, thanks. Thanks indeed, Deputy Function. Early Childhood Ireland entirely agrees. We're active members of the Children's Rights Alliance. And I think that the deputies, members of the Oireachtas will be aware that this is of grave concern to organisations which are about children and focused on children. To go back to your earlier point, you know, children have been very invisible and voiceless, although hugely impacted. And by COVID-19, including we have seen, you know, shop stopping people, you know, single adults coming in with children and so on. And it's certainly our position that, and I think other colleagues have said it, that what the department has, the resources that the department has made available to the sector, to parents, to staff in the last few weeks are very, very welcome in relation to preparing children. And I think that the Department of Children and much more is to come and all of the organisations here today are involved in helping with those resources. They're absolutely invaluable and really important and an important dimension of the consultation that has gone on. But, you know, the idea of, in the context of all of this, that the Department of Children wouldn't be standalone, untouched and have a full minister is just unthinkable. It absolutely sends out a very bad signal and it shouldn't happen. So we entirely agree with you, Deputy Function, on that. I have a number of things I want to get through. So I'm going to start with consultation. We heard earlier from the representatives, the union reps, from the frontline health workers, that there was zero consultation with their own department regarding that what we know is now a failed scheme. I do welcome the advisory committee that was set up in the last few weeks, but that really should have been set up at the very start of all this, not the middle of May. I think it has worked well and I want to know is the department committed to keeping that group and then inviting in relevant groups as it develops. For example, the union reps, for example, should be brought in in regards to any scheme for frontline workers. And if that advisory group had been in place from the very start, maybe we would have got a scheme that actually worked. Because from what I see, since it has been up and running, consultation has been a lot clearer and a lot better. And it's key to so many different things. So can we get a commitment? And I hope there will be a department there in the future to give this commitment, but that advisory group will stay. That's the first question. Thanks, Deputy. Yes, I can certainly give a commitment that we will retain the advisory group. We've been finding the advisory group extremely helpful. The group has met once or twice a week since the middle of May. And we have worked very collaboratively to produce very positive results. To deal with your earlier point and the point made this morning, ideally, we would have had much earlier stage consultations, including with the unions. At the time, for practical reasons, it just simply didn't prove possible because of the nature of what we were dealing with in a very compressed time period. We were essentially operating off very, very limited number of options, public health requirements in particular. And those public health requirements effectively would have limited us to one of two options, either childcare workers providing a service at home or else a limited opening of services. It became very clear in our discussions with NPHET, who were very helpful, but it became very clear very early on that the only game in town was the childcare workers going into the home of healthcare workers. So we were very limited in our options and what we could discuss with others. However, I think it is fair to say that we have a good record of consulting, generally speaking, throughout the department on all sorts of issues. It was unfortunate we didn't have an opportunity in the early stages of this. And I can certainly give a commitment that we will continue to consult widely in relation to the schemes going forward. But with particular reference to the advisory group, as I say, I think it has been a good group. It has met once or twice a week since the middle of May, and I think we've worked collaboratively together to make sure that we produce the best possible scheme. Thanks. And moving on in relation to sustainability, that is a key situation in all of this. I've been talking about sustainability since the very start of this, and we know it's been an underfunded sector for years. So this was actually kind of the straw that brought the camels back for most providers and most staff working in the sector. I've been asking about a sustainability fund, and there is one that exists for community services. I haven't gotten a clear answer whether that is actually going to be used to help facilities who now have debt due to COVID and who may not be able to reopen. So I would like to get some reassurance that there will be a sustainability fund, because otherwise we will see closures and we will see job losses. And I also want to ask about the wage subsidy scheme. Can there be a commitment given to continue that and continue it at the full range, not the 85%, because the very reason it was set up, as you said in your own opening statement, is to keep people in the sector. And we're actually going to see them leaving the sector, and you're going to put providers in a very difficult situation if they can only bring, maybe if they had a staff of 20 and they can only bring 10 back for social distancing reasons. How do they pick which staff they bring back? You know, you're creating a very difficult situation. So a commitment on the sustainability fund and on the wage subsidy scheme, they're the next questions. Thanks. Thanks, Deputy. On the wage subsidy scheme, as you know, the scheme that we announced for the next eight weeks from the 29th of June will feature that temporary wage subsidy scheme. There is then a decision to be made by government as to the future of the temporary wage subsidy scheme overall. I can't speculate on what that will be, but that will be a decision for government. It will obviously influence the type of scheme that we can then operate from the 24th of August onwards. But as I said, that will be for a decision by government. I take the point about sustainability, and I would emphasise that the scheme that we have put in place now for the next eight weeks includes a capital scheme of 14.2 million and a reopening grant totalling 18 million. So I think there's a significant component there. We also do programme support payments. And as you mentioned, the sustainability fund as well. Up to now, that has operated essentially on the community side. So I'm just going to ask Ms McNally, if I may, just to deal with further aspects of the sustainability element. So, Deputy, specifically on the sustainability fund and the questions that you've asked about opening it up to the private sector, there are some potential state aid issues there. And so we're addressing those, looking into those at the moment. Hopefully, it won't prove to be an issue. We certainly would like to extend it if we could, and we've heard the feedback from that. And just in regards to sustainability, generally, you know, the 141% investment in the sector in the last five years, a lot of that has gone to parents, but some of it has gone to the sector because sustainability is a core objective of the departments. And just in specific regard to capacity restraints because of social distancing, actually, the public health guidance is such that some services will be able to open with almost normal capacity. Because the public health advice has been that we can retain the ratios, that the space that's provided, et cetera, is appropriate. So some services will actually be able to bring back a very, very high percentage of their parents. And we hope that that too will assist with sustainability, in addition to the funding packages that we did initially for the first couple of months, the one for July and August, and the one that we hope to do from September or from end of August onwards. And can I just ask about what guidelines have been issued to the sector in relation to a lot of people who are working in the sector have come to us with concerns around their own health and safety that, you know, we're all talking about will schools open in September and will they open maybe one or two days a week? Yet the childcare earlier sector is expected to open from Monday with no one or two days a week. So just, is there a clear guidelines there? We were getting a lot of a range of questions around, you know, COVID symptoms, how people, how managers and stuff handle that. I'm just wondering, has there been guidelines issued? And can I ask as well about the ECCE programme? Is there any consideration being given, seeing as children had to drop out of that in March, mid-March? Is there any consideration for even rolling out a few additional weeks for children due to start school in August? So that would help them as a stepping stone to September. And then I just have one or two other questions after those ones. Thanks. So on the guidelines, deputy, we've published a very significant amount of resources. In fact, some of the sectors say we've probably given them a little bit too much. So there is a dedicated space on our first five websites with all sorts of guidance, including specifically what you're talking about there. So, you know, for people who have concerns about their health, about infection control, etc. There is significant evidence, a significant guidance that has been developed by the Health Protection Surveillance Centre of the HSE. And we've published it in association, worked with them and published it alongside other resources that organisations like Early Childhood Ireland and others have helped us with. As regards the ECCE programme, here totally what you're saying about how it would be lovely for children to give them an extra few weeks. Our focus had to be on getting childcare services up and running on the 29th of June. And I think you'll appreciate that that's been, you know, a significant challenge. I think we're nearly there. The reports on the ground seem to be quite positive about next week. So we can turn our attention to others. I suppose I would say that there is, there would be a cost to that, that we don't have, we don't have a budget for that at the moment. But it is something that we can look at. Yeah. Okay. And then my last question is actually in relation to, it's not necessarily COVID, but I was asked to raise it. It's in relation to the, you know, the sponsorship scheme where children can get additional childcare under the NCS, that there seems to be some confusion in some areas. It was a place in the West that couldn't actually access this and the facility itself had to pay for the additional childcare. So just, is there a programme in place or can maybe additional training or additional information be rolled out to the five sponsorship bodies? And I know that you'll, you'll know what I'm talking about in relation to that. I hope you do anyway. Thank you for that. And any individual cases we'd be delighted to follow up on. I suppose the, the NCS was unfortunate that it had just launched in November and then COVID closed down services in March. So the NCS was really just getting up and running. And at the moment, there's only about 200 children, I think, registered under the sponsor agreement. So clearly it was something that was good, was building and needed a little bit more time. So certainly we'd love to look at the details of that case. We had been running out some training and information for TUSLA and the HSE, the various agencies that were helping us. And it was our intention to do more. So we can follow up on that. Thanks, Chair. Thank you.