Kathleen Funchion: Calls to Expand July Scheme for Additional Needs

Thanks so much, first of all, for the presentations. I was really impressed with the opening statement of Inclusion Ireland, particularly I think in the first or second page where you say some parents state that their child presents with behaviours that can be a challenge or have poor attention skills that require the support of a skilled teacher and not a parent. And I think that just sums everything up that we've been discussing. Over the last number of years, I've done a bit of work around autism and parents of children with autism. And how I sort of came to that was the amount of people that year on year contact us about, they can't get an ASD school place, they can't get an assessment, they can't get various therapies, or they can't get school transport. And it's just, I've come to the conclusion long before COVID ever was here, that there's a two tier education system, whether people actually want to admit that or not, it shouldn't be the case. But there is, if you have an additional need, you are basically a second class citizen in the education system. And I think that's a very sorry thing to have to say, but that's been my experience of dealing with people. And that's not to take away from the very good schools and the very good teachers that do a huge amount of work and good work in this area. But it just to me, the expectation that you can just wait forever for a school place, or it's okay to have to drive two hours to and from school every single day, just because you have an additional need is not acceptable. So there's a few questions. Obviously, when you come to this stage of the debate, and you're kind of one of the last speakers, a lot of things have been covered. But just, you mentioned in your statement somewhere that the NCSE have previously expressed concern about the scheme being open to challenge on equal status grounds. Now, I don't think anyone should have to take that case, but we have seen over the years in this country, that it does take a court case sometimes to get people to wake up, even if you look at the, I know it's a different thing, but look at the cervical check. I often wonder if that hadn't been taken to court, would we ever have heard about it? And I'm just wondering, have you ever given consideration to that? I obviously know maybe cost would be an issue, and it's not something that you should have to do, but I'm just wondering if I could get your opinions on that firstly, please. I'll take that. And just, you know, to repeat again, like Inclusion Ireland has long held a belief that the scheme is discriminatory in its nature. But not only us, the National Council for Special Education, who make policy advice for the Minister of Education on special education needs, have stated the scheme is inequitable in its current guise. That hasn't changed. You know, the NCSE tell us that, you know, the research shows children with other intellectual disabilities, and not just autism and severe profound, those folks can suffer education regression. And there's no reason why they should be excluded from the scheme. Just to say what the deputy has indicated there, and what other deputies have indicated as well, in that, in that sometimes when you have a child with a disability, when that's confirmed to you, a parallel universe opens up, and you go into what we call special land, and things can sometimes be difficult to access in there. And parents will characterise it quite often for a fight, a constant fight for supports, be they financial supports from the state or educational and health related and all of that. But in relation to the July provision scheme specifically, a couple of parents had come to us a couple of years back, and they were just fed up with the situation that their children couldn't access the scheme, and they took it to the Equality Tribunal, that's now in the Workplace Relations Commission, that took off a long time to get going, and eventually, in the summer of last year, they stepped into the High Court, and the Minister settled. So a judgment wasn't made. But the Minister did settle the case, and those two children were allowed to access it. They were children with Down syndrome. They weren't previously allowed to access the scheme. But, you know, this summer provision allowed the Minister to build on that and open up the scheme fully. We welcome the bit that it has been opened up. But look, you know, to push it that extra little bit and include the young people that are in second level education, it, you know, it wouldn't have been too much more ground to seed on the scheme. And look, while there's still time, we'd urge the Minister to do that. And that actually kind of leads me into my second question, which is, you know, on Tuesday, the committee spoke about the early years in the childcare sector, and we all know that's reopening on Monday. And obviously, you know, anything reopening at the moment is going to be difficult and challenges and teething problems. But given that other sectors are reopening, yeah, I personally think that there is a way to provide the July provision to all children with additional needs and not just limited. So I'm wondering, do you think that is the case that it can be done realistically? Or what are the barriers? Because sometimes as well, even before COVID, you would hear a lot of schools don't seem to want to sign up for the scheme. And I'm just wondering, I know you can't say for definite what the reasons are for that, but have you opinions on it? Or have you even anecdotal evidence around it? Like, is it, you know, is there difficulties for the school? I've often heard people say that if you do volunteer to do it, you don't, the staff don't get the wages till November, and there's difficulties around that. Is there a way to make this much more accessible and easier in your opinion? And also, do you believe that it can be done for this summer? Because I think that would be the one clear way of indicating that actually there is a concern around children with additional needs, and they are as important as everybody else, because there's no point in the minister consistently or the department saying that they have empathy, and they know it's difficult, and it's been difficult on parents and difficult on kids. The only way to actually address that is through action. And this could be one way of doing that and actually showing the yes, we're serious about this. So just like to get your opinions on that. Thanks. What's been really important about the opportunity today is to have such a level of focus on the summer programme and refer back to the normal July provision that would take place. I suppose we have moved up a few steps in terms of broadening out the scheme and the actual recognition by the Department of Education and Minister that children have suffered, they do suffer regression, and it is not just children with autism and not just children on the severe to profound end of intellectual disabilities. So, you know, it's a big step. It's something that we've been looking for. In terms of the operation of the scheme, though, like actually making it a reality, I think the teaching unions and the managerial bodies would be best to answer that. But we do know in the public domain that pay is an issue. SNAs traditionally can't deliver home-based provision, but they can this year. But both for SNAs and tutors, when the forms are completed by the parent and the tutors at the end of August and submitted into the department, they won't get paid till November. And again, going back to this thing of, you know, childcare, if you need to engage a childminder to look after your children to work during the month of July, they're not going to accept that you won't pay them till November or December for the work that they've done this summer. So that does act as a disincentive. And I certainly know people have been talking about kind of getting into the higher tax brackets as well. For schools, you know, it's about supporting them and encouraging them to be in a position to deliver. You know, I know schools say, look, you know, staff can be burned out, particularly in special schools, where there's a very high intensity of supports that are given to children. And, you know, there has to be different ways, as opposed to encouraging staff and enabling them to deliver July provision or the summer scheme. One of the good things about this summer is the fact that the department have recognised the scheme needs to be flexible. So instead of it having to be delivered during the month of July and only July, this summer can be delivered any time from the 29th of June, right up to the 21st of August. And again, how it's delivered can be very flexible in terms of there is a maximum number of hours of 40, but that can be kind of delivered by breaking up the weeks if that's suitable for the tutor to actually be able to engage in it. So I think we need to hold on to the flexibility, but it's just not been enough this year so late in the day to put this programme together. And certainly not having the guidelines for the schools has played a major factor. And again, the management bodies and the educational unions would be better able to answer those questions. Thanks very much then. Just very briefly, the last question. Parents have been saying to me, and I've even seen some parents have been to go to social media looking for tutors. So sometimes like when you put in a parliamentary question, you get an answer back. That sounds like absolutely everything is fine and rosy in the garden, but the experience then is a lot different. So is there actual assistance from the NCSC or from CINOS regarding finding tutors? Or is it the case that parents, from what I've seen and heard, is that they really have to do all of the groundwork and all of the legwork? And that's just, and not every parent has the capacity to do that either. Parents have to do all of the legwork. But in fairness, this year, the NCSC have produced a document that indicates, again, look, it's only a signposting exercise, but it indicates the websites where tutors will advertise that they can work on the July provision scheme. But this year, just the scheme has changed slightly. So ordinarily most years, you'd express an interest in taking part in the scheme. And then later on, the department would send you an email to ask you to fully apply. Whereas this year, that system isn't there. And without the proper guidance, a lot of parents don't realise they have to print off the actual claim form. And the principal signs that, and that's their authorisation to go ahead and get a tutor. They then have to see the tutor's guard of clearance or proof of it signed by a notary or a solicitor or a commissioner of oaths. You know, and all of these things, like, while there are, there's rationale for the guard of vetting piece, you know, these are barriers and difficulties that parents face in getting it. But at least this year, there is a little bit of guidance on where parents can go and look for the tutors. But it's very much, you've got to go out there and find somebody yourself. Thanks, Chair. And thanks very much as well to the department and the NCSC for coming in. The first question I have is where a child cannot receive a diagnosis due to the delays because of COVID, where there hasn't been any diagnosis happen. I'm talking probably specifically about ASD, but in general, for either resource hours or for a particular school place in a special school or for an ASD class, what provisions are in place for that child? If they know, if everybody sort of knows, they probably need an ASD class or a special school, or they're definitely going to need resource hours from September, but they can't get that because they don't have the diagnosis on paper. That was already an existing issue in this whole area anyway. But given that there hasn't been any diagnosis happening over the last few months with COVID, what plans are in place? Because I'd hate to see children negatively impacted because of that. So that's the first question for both the department and the NCSC as well. Maybe if I start and then I pass over to Ms. Griffin. We have in recent years changed how we allocate special education teachers in the mainstream. So in the past, the requirement would have been a formal diagnosis and then a certain number of hours based on a disability category. We've moved away from that since September 2017 to the special education teacher allocation model, where based on a profile, schools are allocated that based on complex needs, on a baseline, on standardized test scores and one or two other factors. And that builds a picture of that school and we resource the schools based on that profile. That followed advice that we received from the NCSC and detailed work, which Ms. Griffin may want to touch on. But effectively what that means is that the child doesn't need the formal assessment. The resources are available in the school and will be there waiting for September. Children who are occasionally on waiting lists, say for the HSE or others, or working with HSE disability teams, again, that gets picked up, that that's a complex need and it gets factored in to the provision for the school. Occasionally things change, obviously. A child might move over the course of a year and move to a school and that might change. That of itself could, depending on the child's needs or the numbers of children there, significantly change the make-up of that school. In that situation, there is an outlet for the school to apply for an exceptional review and get additionality if it is merited. I don't think it's anything. I think Mr. Totten has covered everything. But what about, like, you have to have a specific diagnosis on paper if you're looking for an ASD class place or if you're looking for, because I'm thinking of a particular school in Kilkenny that I know you won't be able to apply for unless you have your diagnosis on paper. I know I did mention resource hours, but that wasn't the only thing I mentioned. I mentioned an ASD class and a special school as well. So what happens in that situation? If you're waiting on your diagnosis, it's been delayed because of COVID, your child is due to start school in September. Will they or will they not be accepted into that school? Or will they have to wait and maybe start late in October or November? Okay, I think this situation is no different to a situation right around the country where for years the NCC has highlighted the fact that families haven't been able to get hold of therapy diagnoses and that some resources, for example, placement in a special class or placement in a special school, is dependent on a diagnosis. So, yes, the situation has exacerbated because there haven't been diagnoses taking place in November. Over the last number of months. Okay, so my second question then is similar, but it's around special needs assistance. And it's actually special needs assistance in a preschool. It's a particular situation. There's only one ASD preschool in the whole of Kilkenny. So you're probably aware of which one it is. And they have been told they cater for 12 children. Normally they have nine enrolled. And the reason they don't have the last three places filled is because people have been waiting for a diagnosis. They haven't gotten that diagnosis due to COVID. Every year this preschool is inundated with queries. This time last year I was dealing with various parents who were hoping to get their children in there. So it's not that there's not a demand and a need for it. They've been advised if they don't have 10 children by the end of September, they will lose a special needs assistant. Now they will definitely be able to fill those spaces as the months go on. The reason they cannot is because of COVID and delays with diagnosis. So can you comment on that? I think that's something that I'll look into and I'll get back to you. Okay, I would appreciate it if you do come back to me on that one. And then just in general, the expansion of the summer provision programme. Every year we seem to talk about this and everybody seems to agree it would be great to apply to all children with additional needs and not just be ring-fenced for children with autism. And yet every single year we're in the same situation. I know this year they have catered for some more children. But in general, over the last few months, everyone is in agreement how difficult this situation has been on children with additional needs, on their families, on their parents. And there's no point in applauding those people and saying they're doing great work and we have empathy with them. We're not going to take action and actually do something. And for me, the best way we can do it, and I said it in the earlier session, is by expanding that summer provision programme for all children with additional needs. And I noticed Inclusion Ireland this morning included in their presentation a comment from the NCSE about how you were in fear that they were possibly in breach of the Equal Status Act because it isn't being rolled out. And I just want to get your opinions on that and to ask the Department, why can't we start rolling this out to all children with additional needs? You know, why can't we start putting a plan in place? I mean, for the last four years or as long as I'm in here, we talk about this every single summer. And yes, I understand that things can't be done overnight. But can we start getting some sort of a plan in place that it can be put in? And I do think that it should start this summer. And I think because it would show children with additional needs in their families that they're as important as everybody else and they matter. And I think that that's really important. There's no point in saying you have empathy and you understand things are difficult. People want to see action. That's the next question. Thanks. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for that, Deputy. We have been doing work. I mean, I would agree with you. The NCSE policy advice goes back to 2015. And we agree with it. The Department is in agreement with it. We want to move to a needs-based provision for the summer, which would be much more in accord with other reform we've made across the special education sphere over the last number of years moving away from categorisation into a needs-based approach. We actually were doing quite a bit of work on that this year, looking at it in a more activity-based program, which is, again, in line with what the NCSE had recommended. We had taken that work to a certain point and had a number of engagements with stakeholders and with other departments who also fund or support summer-type provision. But, unfortunately, the COVID-19 crisis largely derailed that work. What we've done for this summer is to come up with something which is certainly an expansion on previous years, but we recognise it's not a panacea and it's not what we would ultimately like a summer provision program to be either. But I think it is more equitable, certainly, than what other schemes might offer. And it's one which has allowed other groups to be involved and has, as far as possible, had regard to that needs approach in informing the groups that we came up with as eligible. And then my final point is in relation to people transitioning from, I suppose, what's deemed children's services, maybe into adult services that are leaving secondary school and then all of a sudden in March, like all of us, everything was turned upside down and a lot of them now maybe don't know around transport and various things. I know it's not directly in your area, but is there any interim services for maybe even September and October for them to stay on or some sort of an interim program that could be looked at? Because for a lot of people, they won't actually be able to directly go on to the adult services because of everything that's happened and the uncertainty and annoyed people coming to me in February, March, asking about transport. And then all of this happens and everything is just up in the air for those families. And already they've dealt with, you know, a very difficult few months. So is there anything that can be looked at sort of as an interim before people transition or if there is going to be a gap there? Thanks. That's the final question. Thank you. We are in engagement with the Department of Health and the HSE on this because it has been raised with us. Our default position on this is that people should transition. So a child who's in their final year of school and would normally be transitioning into, say, adult day services with the HSE ought to make that transition. And if you look at other things we have done and one of your colleagues mentioned earlier about the calculated grades piece, what we sought to do there was not put students into a holding position or a repeat position, but that we found a mechanism through which they could progress on to the next stage in their lives. And we don't believe it's appropriate to deal differently with this group. This group also should move and transition and progress on in the next stage of their lives. But we do recognise that some of the normal things that would happen to support that transition have not been possible since March. So we are going to continue to engage with the HSE rather as a way to support making that transition successfully. Thanks.