Kathleen Funchion highlights NEPPS vacancy at Newtown Dunleckney

Thank you very much, Cathaoirleach and thanks Minister for being here. I was actually glad that this was selected. To be honest, to a certain extent I am not surprised when we get reps in relation to waiting times for assessments or access to therapies or even NEPPS appointments. When I first saw the letter and NEPPS jumped out on the page I thought it was going to be about the amount of assessments that the school found, because a lot of schools I know find it very difficult to pick when they only have a certain amount of assessments per year to kind of go through their list and really have to pick who they think deserves it most, even though all students who need an assessment obviously deserve it equally. But then when I read this and it says that they actually have no NEPPS psychologist, that none has been assigned to their school, so it says obviously they are very concerned at the loss of a vital support. Their school NEPPS psychologists work with both primary and post-primary schools and are concerned with learning, behaviour, social and emotional development. Each of the 221 psychologists are assigned to a group of schools and earlier this year we were notified that none, that there's no NEPPS psychologist assigned. So the school is Newtown Dunleckney National School in Carlow and to be honest, the reason I'm raising this is, and I was hopeful, sometimes when your topical issue is selected you're kind of hopeful that this means there might be some positive news or positive development on the way, so I really hope, Minister, that you might have some good news for that school this evening and that they will have a NEPPS psychologist, because as they go on to further say in their letter, and I'm sure that they've furnished yourself or the department with a copy of this letter, they're encouraging people to go to their GPs to get a referral, but they know that those students are going on to just a never-ending waiting list, and I suppose that's extremely demoralising, and at the end of all of this you really have to think of the children that are being denied, really, access to a full and proper education if they need an assessment and if they're not getting that, and particularly if there's actually no psychologist, and I also wonder as well around, which sometimes happens with schools, if there's any sort of a sudden tragic event or anything in the school, it's usually the NEPPS psychologists that are called in, so what does the school in this situation do? That's just one part for the main thing, obviously, is the assessments that children really vitally need and the difference it can make to a child in terms of being able to access additional resource hours or maybe access to a special needs assistant. I know we're always told that you don't necessarily need a diagnosis, but yet everybody's experience would say different. They would tell you that when they're trying to access these resource hours and special needs assistance and additional supports that they are being told they have to have a diagnosis. So I'd just be interested to hear what the Minister has to say in relation to that particular school and not having a NEPPS psychologist. Thanks, Chair. Thank you, Deputy Function, for bringing this topical issue this evening. Obviously, in my capacity as Minister for Special Education, NEPPS isn't directly under my remit, but notwithstanding that, I'm very happy to talk about it this evening. But just to say, obviously, it's a separate service, as you know, to SNAs and to special education teachers, but it is a very important service that is provided to all schools, all 4,000 schools, primary schools, and indeed post-primary schools, and NEPPS provides educational and psychological services to all of these schools, and you mentioned there if there was a tragic event, for example, what would happen in those circumstances. So I think it's important for you, Deputy and for the House, perhaps if I outline how NEPPS works really in those circumstances. So, first of all, there will be direct engagement where there is what they would call a critical incident, which would be, for example, where you were saying there if there was a tragic situation in a particular school. Now, I've looked and made inquiries specifically in relation to Newtown Dunlecky National School, because as you say, this is a topical issue, particular and pertinent to this particular school. Now, you'll understand, Deputy, that in any national service at any given time, there can be gaps. My understanding in relation to the psychologist in that particular school, that that particular person was promoted. And it can happen at any given time in a national service that a psychologist or whatever person it is can be absent for a number of reasons. So, it could be due to promotion, it could be retirement, it could be sick leave, it could be maternity leave, or a myriad of different reasons. Where there are gaps in the NEPPS system itself for a particular school, what the school can do, and I have to say to you, Deputy, that the school has not contacted NEPPS directly. I just want you to be aware of that. I would suggest following this topical issue, and you can let them know that you brought it up here this evening in the Dáil Chamber with me directly, that they should contact NEPPS head office for support until that recruitment process has been completed. So, that's the first thing to say to you. Yes, it has been brought up in parliamentary questions. Yes, it has been brought up here in the Dáil Chamber, but it has not been brought up directly from the school to NEPPS. So, that's the first thing that needs to be done. What can happen is one of two things. They can either get support from the regional team through the NEPPS head office, as I said to you. There is also a private psychological service that can be availed of, which is under what they call SCAPA, which is the Scheme for Commissioning of Psychological Assessments, and that can be relied on on occasions. That's SCPA as an anagram, the Scheme for Commissioning of Psychological Assessments. So, it's either the regional teams through the NEPPS head office or the private psychological service. So, that is the way that I would suggest that if they want to get extra support, they require support. But it's incorrect to say that at any given time, a psychologist is removed from a school, because that never happens. It is never the case. There are, as I said, across any national service, absenteeism for various different reasons, but those gaps are filled by others. So, in this particular instance, you know, the statement that I have here in writing, which I'm sure you have a copy of, is directly from the department and uses language that I'm trying to make it, I suppose, more easily digestible in terms of what the school should do from a practical perspective. They set out quite clearly around the type of model that they use, the fact that there is an assigned psychologist, an advisory support from an allocated psychologist, so that there are people there to respond to queries. But that really is from a practical perspective, Deputy, what I think the school should do. I will talk to them about contacting NEPs directly and about those, what I would say, are interim measures in terms of a regional team. I imagine the regional team could be overstretched as well. I don't know that, but if this is kind of a common occurrence. In regards to what you're saying there about no school not having, let's say, a NEP psychologist, obviously they don't have one if the person got a promotion. So maybe they're not the only school, because I imagine that there's a number of schools assigned to each psychologist, but certainly they're very much of the opinion that they were informed that there isn't a psychologist assigned to their school. So there's some, I don't know whether it's breakdown in communication, but certainly that's the information they're getting when they have children to be referred for these assessments. So I would disagree to say that it's not the case that they don't have a NEP psychologist, because with all due respect, they wouldn't be contacting us and asking us to raise this if they had access to this service. And just in relation to the private service you are talking about, is that something that a school can avail of? And is there a cost to the school, or is that something that's covered? Because I would imagine that if there's a cost to the school, that that wouldn't be an option for the vast majority of schools who we already know are under pressure in terms of fundraising and everything else, particularly with the increased costs. So that is interesting, though, about that private service, if it is something that they can access in the interim, because it might be a helpful stopgap just while they're obviously waiting for somebody. And the last question then is just, I assume that somebody will be appointed as the psychologist at this school, or whatever group of schools in the area that are potentially missing a psychologist as a result of that promotion. Thanks. Thank you, Deputy, and just to be clear about it, you are correct, so that there isn't an assigned psychologist available at present. You're absolutely correct about that. I suppose the point that I was trying to make is that the school does continue to have access to support and development work, which is delivered by the local team. So, like, for critical incident response, as you mentioned there, and there is advisory support as well from an allocated psychologist in relation to pupil case work. And there's also an advisory psychologist who can respond to any queries that the school may have and support, obviously, from SCAPA, which is the private service. I don't know the answer to whether or not there is a cost implication in relation to that, so I don't want to comment on that, but I think it's worth the school inquiring. We have 225 psychologists throughout the country, as it is, across eight different NEPS regions. Like, if you think back in 2014, there were only 173, there was an increase of 54 in this budget, and the recruitment you've asked about of that psychologist, that's obviously, that competition is ongoing at present, and again, like any national service, as I said, there are gaps. But it's important to say that there is access to a psychologist for the school, and I know that you brought it again to my attention here today, and because it's to my attention, it will be to the attention of the department, but I think it's also worth the school contacting NEPS directly and seeing and inquiring around that private service if the NEPS regional team itself isn't in a position to assist. There are a lot of support there around wellbeing as well, and the counselling services, and all of those measures which will assist the school also.