Kathleen Funchion: Demands Chief Deciding Officer Appoint Own Staff
Kathleen Funchion argued that the chief deciding officer should be able to appoint their own staff to ensure genuine independence, warning against departmental staff being simply assigned to the office. She said the legislation is flawed on this point and invoked the traumatic experiences of former residents at Cara Newa as a warning.
Chief concern about staff appointments
Funchion told the Dáil her central difficulty was with assigned staff - asking where those staff would come from and arguing that staff seconded from a department would undermine real independence. She said the chief deciding officer should be able to advertise for and select the staff needed for the role, and that the department should have no role in assigning staff.
Reference to Cara Newa experiences
She repeatedly referenced people's "horrific" experiences with Cara Newa, saying those stories shaped her fear that a system with departmental influence could produce similar outcomes. Funchion used those examples to argue for greater separation between the decision-making office and the department.
Minister's outline of legal protections and appeals
The minister responding said the legal structures are different to Cara Newa and pointed to statutory protections for the independence of the chief deciding officer. The minister noted that decisions could be appealed to an independent appeals panel and, on points of law, to the High Court.
State agency versus department office model and timing
The minister warned that allowing the chief deciding officer to appoint all staff independently would amount to creating a full state agency, which takes substantial time to establish. The minister cited ongoing work on other agencies and suggested an office within a department could use departmental HR capacity to staff the office more quickly while preserving statutory independence for decision-making.
Funchion's rebuttal and assessment of the legislation
Funchion rejected the claim that independent staff appointments would require creating a whole new agency, arguing that a chief deciding officer should be able to recruit five to eight staff quickly. She said genuinely independent staffing would reduce appeals and reiterated her view that the overall legislation remains flawed and could accommodate concessions on staff appointment powers.
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So my whole difficulty with this is assigned staff. So where are those staff going to come from? It's kind of a little bit similar to what Deputy Sherlock was talking about earlier. So if you have maybe staff that are existing, and no disrespect to them, but in another role within the civil service and they're moved over to this, really if we wanted to be fully 100% independent, the chief deciding officer, you know, he or she should be able to, you know, advertise for staff and decide on what type of staff that is needed for that role. And it should be with that office solely, it shouldn't be assigned staff from the department, because that's sort of the department's way of being in and being out at the same time. And we all know, Deputy Connolly made several references to Cara New and every time she said it, I was like, I can't believe I forgot to speak about them because the people's experience with that institution was just horrific. I mean, the stories that you could tell, about people's interaction, and this is kind of the fear that something like this is going to be similar. So I think it's better for everybody, I think it's better for you, Minister, it's better for the Department if it is totally independent, and you've got no role whatsoever, the Department has no role whatsoever in assigning staff, it should be the chief deciding officer, and that's going to end up being a very frustrating role as well, if you're asked to do something, and then you're like, sort of being, your hands are tied. So I really believe that we need to, have the data as being totally independent. Thanks, Kean Corla. Thank you very much, Kean Corla. What is being proposed here is not similar to Cara Newa, the structures, the legal structures are different, and I think that's really important, we put that at the record at the start. The decision-making, which is the central role, the decisions on each of these applications as they come in, which is the role for the chief deciding officer, is protected in legislation. The independence of that is protected in legislation. Decisions of the chief deciding officer can be appealed to an independent appeals panel, and those decisions can go to the High Court on the point of law. So I believe the protections that you speak about, Deputy Connolly, are built into the decision-making processes. In terms then of the issue of staff appointments, which I think is essential in terms of the actual amendment before us, what you described, Deputy Funcion, in terms of the ability that all staff would be appointed independently, that is almost an entire state agency, that's a state agency model. And, you know, I have spoken about this, and we spoke about it in the information and tracing bill, the amount of time that that will take to establish. Now, maybe you think that that should be done, but we have also spoken, and we have all spoken, about the need to act quickly to make sure survivors and former residents can actually avail of their redress. We know the amount of time it takes to create a new agency in this state, even the work that Minister McEntee and Minister Harris are doing in terms of domestic violence agency. They are looking at an 18-month period. So I believe a process whereby we have an independent office in a department, where it can use the strengths of the department in terms of HR, the ability to get people into relevant places in the right amount of time, but, importantly, have a legislative protection of the independence of the decision-making process. That is the best way to go. Yes, you can, yes. Final contribution. I just want to come back in to say that what the amendment says is that the chief deciding officer should be able to appoint his or her staff independently. The idea of that is that the chances of you having to appeal a decision if you have a genuinely independent staff is going to be less. I am not talking about setting up a whole new state agency which is different than what we were proposing in the birth and information legislation. I am talking about if I was appointed, let us say, in the morning as an independent person, and I say I need five or six or seven or eight staff, that you are going to point that there is no way that would take 18 months. I mean, I cannot understand how that could be used as an argument. And the thing is, there might be all of the appeals, which I, 100%, you know, appeals are really important, and they should be independent, and I welcome that part of it. However, you will have less likelihood of appeals if you have a really decent, genuine, independent service that is going by what is right, or what is, you know, the regulations and stuff that is not necessarily somewhat kind of tainted, for want of better words, in their view. And I just honestly cannot understand how, what the issue is with this. If the person is supposed to be independent, let them appoint their own staff. That is one of the key things of being independent. I just, I cannot understand it. And part of me is annoyed at myself for being annoyed, because this whole legislation is so flawed. It is like Deputy Connolly said earlier, something about, I forget what word she said, but basically, you are trying to change something that is already so flawed. And these minor things, I really do think, Minister, you can concede some of these points. I honestly do not see how there is any difficulty with somebody who is supposed to be independent appointing their own staff. Thank you.
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