Kathleen Funchion demands reform after St John's Ambulance review

Ms Ciancorla. My question is in relation to the situation with St John's Ambulance, and just in light of that and the handling of child sexual abuse allegations within an organisation, what are your views on the assurances to us are provided regarding that organisation's current safeguarding child protection procedures, and if you will make a statement on the matter. Thank you. A useful discussion on this in the Shannon yesterday, so the Board of St John's Ambulance Ireland commissioned an independent review to be carried out by Dr Geoffrey Shannon into the handling of complaints of historical sexual abuse of members under the age of 18, and this was a step I had urged them to undertake following my own engagement with victims of abuse within the organisation. My Department is giving urgent consideration to the findings and recommendations of the review by Dr Shannon. My officials have been working with Tusla to ensure that appropriate supports are in place for survivors of abuse on the publication of the report. Tusla established a helpline available over the St Patrick's weekend, and this continues to be available during normal office hours, Monday to Friday. My officials are also engaging with Tusla to ensure all appropriate actions are taken in response to the findings of the review report. The Commissioner and Board of St John's Ambulance Ireland have accepted in full the findings and recommendations of Dr Shannon's report. As noted in Dr Shannon's report, St John's Ambulance Child Protection Policy was in draft form during the review process. Although completed in November of 2022, the report was not published until March of 2023, and in that timeframe, Child Protection Policy and Procedures, dated 2022, have been finalised and published on the St John's Ambulance website. Tusla carried out a review of St John's Ambulance Child Safeguarding Statement most recently in March of 2022, and the statement was deemed compliant. Child Protection concerns relating to current members of the organisation should be referred to Tusla and on Garda Siakana, and assurance was given by St John's Ambulance to my officials that all known child protection concerns had been fully reported to Tusla. Tusla. So just to say, Tusla, sorry, St John's Ambulance have set out a detailed document outlining how they will respond to the very significant number of recommendations set out in Dr Shannon's report. I am determined to see that those recommendations are implemented, and officials in my department, along with Tusla officials, have already met with members of the St John's Ambulance Board they met earlier this week, looking to set up a process whereby we can ensure that all those recommendations are fully implemented. I think that is obviously going to be key, but I suppose it is very worrying to think that an organisation that is dealing with children, you know, I suppose, up until, I think it was November 2022, you said it was finally finalised, their child protection policy or statement, and I suppose, actually, I want to just mention those who have come forward and have told their stories as well, and commend them. I know, and I know certainly from dealing with one or two, one person specifically, that they felt for a very long time they were not being listened to and they were not being heard, and unfortunately that is too often a debate that we have in this chamber about other similar situations. So I do think we owe them a huge amount, and I hope it is some sort of a level of vindication for them, but I think we really need to learn from this, and I will go into it in more detail in my follow-up, but I am just wondering about what we need to do now in terms of possible legislation for, I suppose, for kind of nearly a HICWA-style approach to organisations that are dealing with children. Thanks very much. While we all welcome the fact that this report was undertaken, it was published, and St John's Ambulance have committed to implementing all its recommendations, it is not acceptable that it took that huge level of pressure, primarily by victims of abuse in this organisation, and nearly everyone here would have engaged with one or more of those victims, it took their pressure to bring about this, and that situation is not acceptable. I think it is important that we recognise that. As I say, in terms of the internal structures of St John's Ambulance, the report is very scathing in places and sets out the need for very significant internal reform, and I want to work to make sure that happens. I know your committee is going to be engaging with TUSLA in terms of its oversight role here. I will carefully observe those hearings, and if there is necessary for follow-up, we are happy to do so. The committee is hoping to look at this, and I know we have some members of the committee here, Deputy Sherlock and Deputy Carnes as well. I suppose just to say, and I am assuming this is being done, but just to make sure it is, I am assuming there is consultation with the survivors that have come forward and that have told their stories in relation to kind of, you know, any of this that is going on in terms of St John's Ambulance. I suppose it also raises the really serious question of who is actually in charge of ensuring that organisations, whether they are state funded or not, that deal with children, have the correct procedures in place and are having best practice. What I said earlier in relation to a HICWA-style organisation, they go in and obviously examine and ensure that everything is in order in relation to the health sector. Do we need to look at something like this in relation to child protection? It is very worrying, and I do not even know if worrying is a strong enough word to use, that up until November 2022 this organisation, and they obviously would have known as well that there was a huge amount of allegations or speculation around them, and they still did not have their procedure in place. I know you have acknowledged that that is not acceptable, but is there other organisations that we do not know of? Do we need to look at legislation or something now to give to us the powers to go in to kind of check these on a regular basis? Sorry, thanks. In terms of engagement with survivors, what I said yesterday in the Shannon is that I have met, I have had meetings online, phone calls, very significant engagement with one of the survivors, and I am open to further engagement if that is something that is that they would feel is necessary and it is something that they would wish. In terms of moving away from St John's Ambulance to the wider issue, I suppose, look, I think those discussions you have at your committee will be useful in terms of TUSA giving its perspective of its engagement with this organisation and any similar organisation. I know that the new special rapporteur for child protection is going to be speaking with me about this particular issue. I know she wants to speak with St John's Ambulance as well in terms of their implementation of the report. So look, I suppose Dr Shannon's report was very much focused on actions within St John's Ambulance itself. I think your committee probably has an opportunity to maybe look at this with a wider lens. I am not committing myself to anything absolutely today, but I will listen very closely and if there are particular recommendations that the committee have, I am obviously happy to engage with yourselves on those. Thank you very much.