Senator John McGahon- speech from 19 Oct 2022

Minister, I'm tabling this commencement debate and bringing it to the House after the visit that you had in Dundalk two weeks ago, when you kindly came to the county and you went to Colossico Holland and you went to the CBS Primary School. When you're at both of those schools, you would have met with the principal of Colossico Holland, Tamae Sharkey, and you also would have met with Maria Doyle, who's a teacher in the CBS Primary School. Tamae and Maria both put some very key points across you and key points across to me that day and I wanted to bring them back to this house because there is a very real fear among the school community, among parents in County Louth about the provision and the allocation of school places for pupils with autism going into secondary school. And that fear isn't based off antidotes, that fear isn't based off what somebody said to somebody else, that fear is based off the data and that data itself is on the NCSE website and I looked at that data this morning and the data is very, very clear. That if you draw a line from Kilcyren Village in County Louth right across to the Meath and Monaghan border, there's 24 schools above that line, there's 24 special classes with six pupils in each class, that's 144 students. And just to give you the idea of it, in my County of Louth, there's the line right there, that's half of the county, half of the geographical county along with a town of Dundalk the size of 42,000 people. So, in that area, you have 24 special classes at primary school level, but at secondary school level, there's eight secondary schools in this area, but there's only three classes and that's a total of 18. So, what we're going to have to do in the next couple of years is get 144 students into what is currently 18 spaces. And those 18 spaces, you officially open two of them, two of them are in Closchic o'Holland and the third one is in St Vincent's. So, this is what the issue really is, about ensuring that we have a new level of capacity and availability at a secondary school level in the North Louth and Dundalk area to accommodate for the pupils who are already in those classes at a primary school level. And currently, what you have now then is, as a result of this, you have families who are now sitting around their kitchen table trying to make decisions about where their kids are going to go in secondary school. And it is absolutely not fair, and it's wrong, and you have said this yourself, you'd agree with me, I know you do because we have discussed this. It's not fair and it's wrong that a family would have to make a decision about where to send one child and not another based on what diagnosis one child may have. Children have the absolute right to go to their same school as their siblings, the same school as their neighbours or indeed the same school as their friends. And what we don't want to see is those decisions having to be made because what we want to see is capacity in all of those eight secondary schools in Dundalk and North Louth that I mentioned. So the real reason then why I'm bringing this here today is because to find out what we're going to do, and I have two questions about it, to find out what we're going to do for September 2023. Because those 18 spaces in those three schools are already full for next September. And I personally know of six pupils who will need one of those 18 spots, but it's oversubscribed. So those six students are now out of space for September 2023. So the two key questions that I'm coming here today about to find out what are we going to do in the short term by September 2023 to try and accommodate those extra students? And then what are we going to do in the long term for September 2024, 2025, 2026, 2027, 2028? What are we going to do in the long term to then ensure that those 144 pupils who are currently in primary education have a space when they get to secondary school level? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Senator McGann. And first of all, I want to thank you for the invitation to visit Dundalk and Louth. I visited Claustia Kukul and was extremely impressed with the principal, Principal Sharkey there, and the credible work that he's doing opening two special classes in the school. And also with Maria Dahl in CBS Primary, and indeed Eileen Hart, and the credible work that they're doing. And also St Colmkills in Tully Donnell and the four ASD classes there, and the principal Anne-Marie Ford. Incredible examples in these schools of the work they're doing in mainstream inclusion, but also opening of special classes. And that's something, obviously, as Minister for Special Education, something that I acknowledge and encourage. And I want to thank you for your particular interest in this area, Senator McGann. It's an extremely important area, and the issues that you raise are important as well. One of the measures that I managed to secure in this particular budget, in Budget 23, was extra resources for the National Council for Special Education. So the staffing levels in the NCSC hadn't actually changed, I think, since about 2004, 2007. Now we manage to secure a 13 million payment to the NCSC. So in those circumstances, they'll be able to employ an additional 160 staff, which is advisors and CNOs. And the CNOs are critical when you're talking about that communication piece with parents and with families through the schools, whether it's primary or post-primary, in terms of obtaining a placement, an appropriate placement for their child. So in the very first instance, and you mentioned there about education being a right, and it is a right, and it's a right for every child in this country, regardless of the fact that they have an additional need or not. The first thing that we have to do, and it's enshrined the Constitution, is that we have to find an appropriate placement for the child. And the second thing that we try to do then is try to find a placement in the locality for that child. And that has proved to be a challenge. It's a challenge not just for children with additional needs, but other children as well who have to travel on buses to obtain a school that they can attend, because their local school may be fully booked up. But it is a particular challenge for children with additional needs, because they are more vulnerable. And that is something that I'm increasingly aware of. It's something that the Children for Ombudsman had mentioned in his report in terms of travel. But in the first instance, we want to make sure that every child has an appropriate placement. In Louth, as we know this year, all children were catered for. So all children who had additional needs were catered for. In Louth at the moment we have 69 special classes in total. 54 of those are in primary and 15 are in post-primary. And there were 13 new classes for September 2022. 11 primary and 2 post-primary. So that's a significant addition to what was there originally. And you ask in particular about the future and forward planning. And obviously when I came into this role, and this role was specially created, and so the First Minister for Special Education, we had a wide look at the forecasting models that were already in existence, and how we can improve on those, and how can we ameliorate that, and make sure that there is that proper sharing of data between the departments, between the schools, and between the NCSC. So we have a new forecasting model in place, which is over a five year period. Because you're quite right, if there are children, and I don't have the particular data, but I take you at your word and what you're saying, I'm not sure if you're talking about 18 classes or 18 spaces, because there's a difference obviously between 18 spaces. Three classes. Yeah, so there is a difference there obviously. And if there are, as you say, 104 students in primary at the moment, and the majority we assume of those will be going on to post-primary, we have to make sure that we have the placements for them. The NCSC is aware of that. So being able, and John Carney who's the new CEO, will be able to recruit extra staff in order to implement that. And use our forecasting model to be able to anticipate where there is capacity in local schools, and how we can provide for them. And obviously, we have the new legislation as well, which can assist us with that. Thank you, Minister. Senator, you have one minute. Thank you very much, Minister. That's very reassuring, especially when you mention about John Carney, who I know you said will hopefully facilitate a visit to the Dock in the future. The one point that I would say is, the extra staff is so welcome, and that is going to provide a real ability to cater for these spaces. However, there is an issue of actual physical capacity. And what I mean by that is, you have a number of secondary schools in Dock that have been secondary schools for 100, 150 years. You know, they're right in the middle of the town centre, and it's very difficult because of the physical nature of where they are to actually physically expand. So, I think we need to do some work with the building unit in Tullamore to try and see what we can do for those types of schools in large provincial towns in Dock, who are physically boxed in, and don't have the physical space to try and expand on what we can do with that. But the point is, and it just goes to show, and I'm glad to see that there's forward planning, we have 18 spaces in this whole part of North Louth, and we have 144 children. And I'm really heartened to hear that you're going to work with me over the next couple of years to ensure that those 144 children will have a proper space when they move to second level education. Thank you, Senator. Minister, one minute. Thank you, Senator. I mean, it goes without saying that there are, and will be, and always are, conversations that are going on that we're not aware of with schools in Louth and in the Anvirons that wouldn't be publicly available. So, there may well, those children may already be catered for, but that's something that I can update you on, obviously, because one of the things that we want to do is make sure that the gap is closed, not just in Louth, but throughout the country, between primary and post-primary, so that nobody falls off a cliff, that there is actually an appropriate placement for them to continue on with their education. And obviously, we have the legislation as well now in place in terms of Section 37A, but also in terms of Section 67, where the NCSE can designate a child to a school if needs be. But it is important to say that the majority of places are open without recourse to the Section 37A legislation, but it is there if we need it. There is also the accommodation, the additional accommodation scheme that the department, through the planning of building units, can provide extra funding where we can reconfigure the school itself to provide that extra capacity where it is needed, as long as the school is willing to do so. And most schools, and I want to thank all of the schools, and I mentioned the ones in your own locality and your own constituency earlier, but I want to thank other schools as well who do volunteer, because it goes a huge way to helping these children with additional needs, which ultimately is what this is all about. Thank you, Minister. myself at the Department of Builders who are a part of the time on thepi, how am I okay, how are we going to work? Today I put a lot of things in this discussion. Since I was me, diesem when I was a consultant, I put a lot of things in the형 cut off which is good I wanted to go, and this is good for girls in my opinion today.