Deputy Mary Lou McDonald - speech from 14 Oct 2020

Thank you very much, Thaiseach. What happened to women and children behind the high walls of Ireland's mother and baby homes cast along in a dark shadow. For decades, these homes were shrouded in secrecy and the awful abuse of single mothers, the forced separation of families and the horrors of what happened in places like Thume is still hard to comprehend. Those who survived these institutions, those who didn't survive and their families are entitled to justice and they're entitled to the truth. And I'm sure you received thousands of emails and letters from survivors and families regarding the fast-tracking through the Oireachtas this week of the bill relating to their records. There are huge concerns over the lack of consultation regarding this bill and there are serious questions as to why Minister O'Gorman is proceeding with this approach. The main concern, Thaiseach, is the intention of the Minister to transfer part of the Commission of Investigations archive to Thusla without keeping a copy and a plan to seal the remainder of the archive for a period of 30 years. This will prevent people from accessing their records from the Minister's archive and it will stop families from accessing information about disappeared family members or babies buried in unmarked graves. I'm sure you will agree, Thaiseach, that this is very wrong. It also means that all the information, the files and the records that show how abusive the system was, will be withheld from the very people who are entitled to the truth. The role of the State and the Government should be to remove the veil of secrecy surrounding mother and baby homes, not to reinforce it. Minister O'Gorman has yet to credibly explain why he is taking these actions. He says that it is a requirement under the legislation in order to preserve access to valuable information and evidence, but that is not correct. There is no legal obligation under the 2004 Commission of Investigation Act for the Minister to seal these records, thereby preventing people from accessing their information. In fact, the Commission of Investigation Act enables the Commission to deposit these records with the Minister for Children on its dissolution. It is also not credible for the Minister to suggest that allowing survivors and families access to their records could in any way impede or undermine the operation of the Commission. In fact, as you well know, Thaiseach, under data protection legislation, survivors have the right to access their own data. Surely allowing people to access their information and records serves only to advance the cause of truth and justice. In fact, rather than be bound to secrecy, the Orocsis could legislate to unseal records and evidence gathered by the Commission. So, the proposed legislation needs to be scrapped. The Minister needs to produce an anonymised index of the records held. He needs to consult with survivors and their advocates and then draft the appropriate legislation. Legislation that meets the needs and rights of survivors and the moral obligations of the State. This is the right thing to do. Provision should also be made to enable survivors to decide how to handle their records in the future. There is also a need for a dedicated archive to be set up at Sean McDermott Street. I think there is great merit in that proposal. Thaiseach, I believe that everyone in this House wants to see justice and truth for those women and children of the mother and baby homes. However, the Minister is doing the wrong thing here and he is causing enormous alarm and huge upset. So, I want to ask you, Thaiseach, to intervene immediately. I want to ask also that we work together across the House to resolve this very important matter. Thank you, Deputy McDonnell. Well, first of all, I thank the Deputy for raising this and to say that, from my own perspective, I think the situation in relation to mother and baby homes was, in my view, represented a very dark period in our history. I think it was an appalling approach to the treatment of women and mothers, and at the time, the separation of child from mother to me. And I'm looking back, I accept from the norms, maybe of later years, but still to me as an individual and as a parent, it's something I can never get over. But this was the culture, this was the practice of separation of child from the mother. I think we have, in the modern area, in some respects, moved on a lot in terms of creating support for families and for mothers in challenging situations. But what I would say to the Deputy is, I don't think this should be a matter of dispute in the House. And I regret the degree to which you've cast aspersions on the Minister's intentions and motivations, which are very sincere and heartfelt. And the reason the legislation has been brought forward is to provide urgent and critical legal clarity surrounding the future use of the database compiled by the Mother and Baby Homes Commission. It's been brought forward, genuinely being brought forward, to preserve invaluable information, not to put it beyond reach as has been reported. So that's not the intention. The bill will make it possible for the database that has been compiled by the Commission to be accessible under current legislation and to make it available for use under future birth information and tracing legislation. And I think it's important to state that the purpose of this legislation is also to preserve all of the records which the Commission has compiled in the course of its work. And it does not otherwise alter the governance of the Commission's archive under the Commission's of Investigations Act 2004. So the urgent issue in front of us is to ensure that we preserve the invaluable cache of information and not lose it forever. And as you know, in the course of its work, the Mother and Baby Homes Commission has compiled a database of the mothers and children who are resident in the main mother and baby's home. The Commission and the Government agree that this database would be of considerable assistance to those involved in providing information and tracing services to individuals who are residents in these institutions. The database includes information extracted from institutions whose original records are now held in the main by TUSLA. The legislation has been advanced to address current concerns raised by the Commission about the need for it to redact personal information and the impact which such redactions would have in terms of effectively destroying this database. The impetus for this bill then derives from the necessity to secure an urgent bespoke solution to protect the complete records, the complete records of the Commission, including the database, before its expected dissolution by the end of this month. The Commission is due to submit its final report to the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth by the 30th of October 2020 and then stands dissolved. Prior to its dissolution under law, it must deposit all Commission records with the Minister. In the normal course, such records are then sealed for a period of 30 years prior to their transfer to the National Archives. This is a requirement of the Commission of Investigation Act 2004 and one we are bound to follow. In advancing the legislation today, we are ensuring that an incredibly valuable and useful set of data can be used into the future and can support, stress, can support that essential information and tracing component that would otherwise be lost. It is critically important to acknowledge that here also that the Commission received testimony from individuals who were former residents of mother and baby homes under a guarantee of absolute confidence. Confidentiality and that is a commitment to many vulnerable people with relived experiences of post-trauma which cannot be reneged upon. I know the Deputy, we all know that this is not just simply a historical matter, it is a real living issue for many, many people. Thank you, Tisic. So, I will take further questions on that, but again, this is about enabling people to access their records in time and to balance that. This act is absolutely necessary before the end of this month to preserve these records. Thank you. And I know, Tisic, we all share your view and I think all of us find it difficult to reconcile that Ireland, and not in the dim and distant past, but in the recent past, was such a hostile place for vulnerable women and their children. And I said in my opening remarks that that is a shared view and the correct view, and this therefore isn't simply data, this is information and testimony that relates to, as you can set out, to real living people who have been traumatised and who are on a journey in search of information, of truth, their own information, their own story. The stories of their loved ones, in some cases, the story of children that never emerged from these institutions and that were buried in mass graves. We all know that. And the truth is that the Minister has not engaged with the survivors. They have, he has not engaged with their advocates. And the truth is also that access for those people and for their families has to be a tantamount concern of the state. So the notion of sealing these records for 30 years, a time span in which surely many, many survivors of the mother and baby homes will have gone to their great reward and will never find the truth and the full truth and have access to their records is absolutely unconscionable, Tisic. So I want to make an appeal to you again, rather than defending this legislation, which the survivors and their advocates all agree and their legal advisors agree is unnecessary, is unwarranted and is causing huge distress. Because I am asking and appealing that we operate on a cross-party basis to resolve this matter to the satisfaction of the survivors in line with legal obligations. The Minister does not have to act as he is acting and I'm appealing again for you to take a wider perspective. Well, I'm appealing to you to do it cross-party. You're not doing it. You've come in attacking the Minister's bona fide. The Minister wants to help here. What he's doing is sensible and the right thing to do before the end of October. Can you not see that? And I've no doubt the Minister will talk to you. The Minister will talk. I'm not, I'm just saying, if you want cross-party, I'm not aggressive, I'm not aggressive at all. I'm not aggressive at all. Go back and listen to you. I'm simply saying, I think you're wronging the Minister and I think you're not accepting his bona fide. I'm sure the Minister will be more than willing to talk to your spokesperson and other spokespeople. Because the final report to the Commission, the section of the confidential committee will reproduce the anonymised testimony of each individual who appeared before it. While the testimony will be anonymous and slightly summarised, people will nonetheless be able to see and recognise their own story told in their own words. The Commission, you see, the Commission has said to the Minister that there are issues here. The Minister agrees with the Commission in terms of the need to preserve the data because the data can be used in the future for assisting in tracing and assisting people. But if we don't preserve the data at all of the testimonies that were provided to the Commission, then that will be rendered. That capacity to provide a comprehensive service in the future will be undermined, essentially. So that's why the bill has been brought in. But it's not the final act in all of this. But what it does achieve is that it essentially enables us to preserve the records and then to be in a position, and to still in particular be in a position then in the future with further legislation to, obviously there are a balance of competing rights, but to improve and enhance the capacity of people. And look, it's very clear that the bill is necessary to resolve the serious legal and practical issues raised by the Commission in relation to finalising its records in accordance with the Commission of Investigation Act. More significantly, the Commission considers, this is the Commissioner, that it is obliged to redact sensitive personal information before depositing its records. The Commission is of the view that its databases would be of considerable assistance, agrees with you, to those involved in providing information and tracing services. However, it accepts that redacting personal information would effectively render the databases and related records useless for this purpose. The Minister concorded with the Commission's assessment of the current and future value of the databases and deems it necessary to introduce this legislation to ensure complete records can be appropriately preserved and protected in the public interest ahead of the dissolution of the Commission on the 30th of October 2020. And again, I can provide further data to the Deputy, if the Deputy requires, and others, but we're willing to work here. The motivation is a positive and genuine one, and I'd ask that you'd accept the Government's bona fides on this.