Senator Gerard Craughwell - speech from 05 Oct 2021

Would you move the amendment, Senator Crockwell? Yes, I would formally move the amendment. Minister, I am going to take both amendments together, if that is okay with you. With respect to Amendment 1, what we are proposing here is an amendment of the 1993 Act to provide for the establishment by the IAA of a standing body known as the Licence Holders Forum, to meet at least twice a year and to provide a statutory basis for consultation and collaboration between licence holders and the IAA. I am aware, Minister, that the IAA have written recently to IALPA saying that their new strategy will provide for a licence holder's form. I do not question the bona fides of the Board and current management of the IAA in this regard, but there are great benefits to stating it explicitly in the law. This is because of concerns that there is an existing culture of exclusion in the IAA which may exclude representative bodies, including IALPA, from participating in this forum. I would like your assurance today, Minister, that you will accept my amendments and mine and Sinn Fein's amendments to the Bill to ensure that this is not allowed to happen. I would share the concerns of IALPA members that the big airline companies have the clout to influence the IAA into excluding representative bodies and trade unions from being part of a consultative and stakeholders forum. Minister, given the vital nature of input from pilots, particularly relating to safety and regulation, I do not think that we should depend on organisational culture of goodwill to ensure this. With safety as a key priority, all of this should be nailed down as explicitly as possible. Now, Minister, I did make these amendments available to your office and I was hoping that we would have been able to sit down before this came to the committee stage and discuss the amendments. But look, IAA have not sort of covered themselves in glory in recent times. We who sit on the transport committee are constantly getting emails about problems with the IAA and that's something that is of great concern to me. But also there's a historical background to the clout that the major carriers in this country have and the way pilots have been treated down through the years. We have so many pilots who are on contract in these major organisations. You know, I really believe that what IAA is looking for here, and I make no apology for representing IAA's views here today, what IAA is looking for is that there will be certainty underpinned by legislation for their members when it comes to difficulties with the organisations they work for. So, from that point of view, IAA will move on to the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment proposes the drawing up of a licence holders charter. While I welcome and acknowledge the recent commitment by the IAA to develop a licence holders charter, I believe that this also needs to be placed on a statutory footing. The key features of the Charter would be a system of authorisation and licensing that is operated in an integrated and transparent manner consistent with the protection of safety. I'm aware of the existing facility for licence holders to report on safety concerns directly to the IAA, but experience tells us that the response mechanism is not fast nor as consistent as it should be. In addition, while the IAA does encourage pilots to raise safety matters through their airline, this can pose serious employer-employee relation issues for pilots who may be perceived as being critical of their employing airline, with sometimes serious consequences. It is essential that the reporting process is placed on a statutory footing. Nothing relating to airline safety should be left to chance goodwill or best intentions. These amendments are also cognisant of the just culture requirements of EU Regulation 376-2014. Now, this morning, Minister, I spent quite a considerable amount of time, very early this morning, reading the report, or the, shall we say, the interim report of Rescue 116. And one of the things I found in that is that there is a culture that exists within the airline industry in this country where people are afraid to come forward with issues. And that's simply not good enough. And, you know, I mean, we're talking about the people who carry three and four hundred people and sometimes an awful lot more on an aluminium tube to wherever they want to go. So, these pilots have to have their own form. They have to have the ability to take matters of concern to them up. It is, after all, the airline has one licence to operate. The pilot himself or herself has another licence to fly. And if there's a conflict between the views of both, then it should be open to somebody to adjudicate on that. And it should be that the pilot can actually access the adjudication process without going through the employer. So, I have some great concerns about the licensing issues that I brought up here today. And I really would ask you to, even at this late stage, to accept the amendments that we have. They are being proposed by the experts in the area. The pilots themselves, they are the people who are asking for this. And we shouldn't always let the big airlines have their own say. And that's really what's happening here, from what I can see. It's the way the legislation is read. We should not be afraid to bring in legislation that might cause one of these big carriers to heal every now and then. And that's not a bad thing. So, I'd ask you to consider that. And I'll await your response on that one, Minister. Thank you very much. Thank you, Minister, for being willing to listen today. I think Senator Buttermore hit the nail on the head when we're talking about pilots firstly. Anybody who has watched the programme he adverted to, the air traffic, or sorry, the air accident investigation, flying is about a number of small steps that all have to be taken, if you want, in the correct order. What a pilot cannot have is fear to report. You cannot have a situation where a pilot feels the employer is the only one they can go to. I could cite examples here today, Minister, of pressure pilots were put under in order to, shall we say, sail as close to the wind of breaking the regulations as would be possible. And the reason I won't cite those specifics here today is because the moment I do, people will start putting two and two together and start coming up with a different airline. And we'll have airlines branded as this, that, or the other. I'm not going to do that. But what I am going to say is that by putting this into the legislation, you are guaranteeing the people who do the work on the ground the opportunity to go outside their employer and to ensure that they are getting the best, safest possible conditions to do their job in. Now, I mentioned in my earlier contribution, Rescue 116. And I know that the report on Rescue 116 is due imminently. And none of the organisations involved in Rescue 116, not the IAA, not the Department of Transport, not CHC helicopters, none of them come out of it good. The overall, you will find in that report, that staff were afraid to talk about things. The fact that we had pilots with 18 hours awake, dispatched or scrambled to fly from Dublin to Black Sod after 18 hours without sleep. Where was the IAA in that? How did they finish up having pilots on 24-hour duties? I have no idea how that happened. But the IAA have not crowned themselves in glory. And as Senator Buttermore has said, and we discussed this at the committee, air traffic controllers, it's a stressful job at the best of times. We have had horrific stories from air traffic controllers. Changing the name of the organisation and moving the regulator into the organisation, it's not going to change the culture. The culture, Minister, you, unfortunately, are the person carrying the can for this one. And, unfortunately, if you're not going to accept my amendments, the one thing I do want from you is a promise that you're going to get in there and see exactly what's going on and put an end to it. Senator Buttermore mentioned Ciaran Mulvey. Every time I think of Ciaran Mulvey's name, I know we have a major crisis on our hands. Because that's when we look for Ciaran, that's where he's at his best. And it really does pain me the stuff that I'm getting back from both the pilots, the air traffic controllers, the engineering people and the cabin crews. All of them are having problems. And the IAA is stuck in the middle of that to their necks. So, I'm really asking you, Minister, to accept these amendments today. Thank you. Thank you, Senators. And there was just a number of issues there, maybe not directly related to the amendment. I might just deal with first the IAA industrial relations, if I can. Look, I'm aware that a significant proportion of the air traffic controllers have made representations to Minister Ryan over recent weeks outlining their concerns regarding workplace issues within the IAA. And as Senators will know, with any commercial state body, workplace issues are matters that fall in the first instance to be addressed by the board and executive of that body. Nevertheless, briefings have been sought and received from the IAA on the issues raised in the correspondence. And on the specific matter of the operation of the IAA's call-in scheme and any safety implications, the IAA executive have affirmed that safety is their overriding priority and that at no point has safety ever been compromised in the operation of the scheme or posed any risk to the safety of ATC services. I understand that IAA's longstanding internal dispute resolution board, established with union agreement, has issued a binding resolution upholding the IAA's position on the operation of this scheme. I also understand that whilst FORSA has urged its members to cooperate with this ruling, a significant portion of ATCs remain unhappy with the operation of the call-in scheme and with other workplace matters. And I understand that in an effort to ensure continued dialogue and in an attempt to resolve the current issues that the IAA executive recently met with FORSA and the chairman of the IAA's internal dispute resolution board with a focus on addressing any outstanding concerns through dialogue. And it's important that all sides recognise the need to continue to engage in dialogue in a constructive way in order to bring a resolution to the differences that have arisen. Just in relation to Section 59 Amendments 1 and 2, and I hear your concerns loudly, Senators, and I can empathise with them and I know where you're coming from. It is my strong expectation that the new single aviation regulator, once established, is that it will engage with all stakeholders in a comprehensive and an effective manner and that communications with licence holders will be responsive and will follow good practice. The intention is that we will have a new regulator, a new board, new chairperson and CEO with a fresh approach. And I think that's really important to say here. Amendment 1 proposes to establish a licence holders forum in primary legislation. The amendment fixes the membership, the participants, the meetings, the matters it considers and communication by the IAA with the participants. Amendment 2 proposes to establish a licence holder's charter, also in primary legislation. It requires the IAA to provide written guidance to licence holders on any matter related to compliance with its licence, direction on the interpretation of legal requirements, a written ruling as to the compliance with its licence, and a right of reconsideration of any such ruling. And while I strongly support the objectives of good stakeholder engagement and open and transparent communication with licence holders by the new regulator, I'm not in favour of establishing such a forum or a charter by means of statute for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's not the norm to hard-code such mechanisms into statute. Secondly, the amendments risk infringing on the independence of the regulator in how it transacts its business. Thirdly, by being prescriptive, they fetter the flexibility of the regulator to effectively manage consultation and stakeholder engagement and communications. And fourthly, I don't believe that by prescribing engagement between parties that you necessarily improve the quality of that engagement. And I fully understand that IALPA are passionate about its concerns and it points to the long history of its engagement with the IAA. I hear that loudly and these are complex issues of trust and relationship building. However, I'm confident that the new regulator intends to address the concerns of IALPA in a proactive and satisfactory manner on a non-statutory and consultative basis. I note that in his letter to all stakeholders on the 21st of September, the aviation regulator's chief executive designate is inviting observations on the preparation of a draft statement of strategy for the new IAA regulator for the period of 2022 to 2024. In the letter, he's proposed the following as deliverables, namely to review and improve the IAA's regulatory processes as necessary, to provide clear information on processes, including compliance requirements, to establish stakeholder forums to inform decision-making, to set out a charter for licence holders and to establish forums for sharing best practice. The whole basis, senators, of this bill is to reform the regulatory structure and to create a new independent regulator. Part and parcel of that reform will be the stakeholder engagement under a new board, chairperson and CEO. And IALPA will not be engaging, and this is important, and I hear what you're saying, senators, they will not be engaging with the IAA in its original form. And as such, I cannot accept amendments one and two. Senator Crockett. Thank you, Lasker-Hurlough. Minister, I hear what you're saying. I spent four years of my life at the top of trade unionism. And in those four years, I learned that you can actually work within rules. You can lay down procedures that both sides can adhere to. Maybe not as rigid as we're trying to do here, but you can have regulations, you can have rules that people have to adhere to in order to resolve difficulties. I will be pushing a vote on this, and I understand your position. And what I would ask is that, if I lose the vote, that perhaps you will consider some sort of statutory instrument that might protect the pilots, protect the air cabin crews, the engineers, and the air traffic controllers that would guarantee them access directly to a regulator rather than having to go through their employers. It might be something you'd sit down and look at with ourselves and perhaps IELPA. That's if I lose the vote. I'm hopeful I won't. Thank you very much, Glasgow. I want to put something on the record. Minister Hildegard Nocton, I have no inhibitions or no doubts as to your commitment here today. Your bona fides have always been a very honourable person. It's not you at all. Minister Nocton, you won't be there always. You'll move on to greater and better things. You may even finish up Taoiseach, who knows, it'll be great for Galway. But, Minister, at the end of the day, it's not you. It's the organisation we're talking about that is currently there today. And I think we have all spoken and said there is a toxic or a toxicity in that organisation at the moment. Perhaps a new CEO, perhaps a new chairman will make all of that better. I don't know. But this is not about you. It never was about you. It's about the IAA. It's about the relationship that exists between pilots, air traffic controllers, engineering, cabin crews, all of them. We depend on them for safety. So, Minister, I don't want anybody going away from here today saying Crocwilla had to go with the Minister because the Minister or bona fides are beyond question. I just want to put that on the record. First of all, it's important just to, I suppose, differentiate between what we're doing here during this bill which is trying to reform the regulatory structure. And I know there are industrial relations issues. And just to, I think it's very clear that we don't conflate the two. And both are equally important. Just it's really clear. So, just in relation to the internal dispute resolution board that was established with union agreement. And it is really important. As frustrating as it is that both sides do engage and try to resolve this. Just in relation to the amendments here. And again, I just want to reiterate that by putting this, it was charters and fora into, I suppose, into statutes and hard coding it, you are impacting on the independence of the regulator. You're removing the flexibility that the regulator needs, an independent regulator needs. And what we have is an explicit commitment now and promise from a CEO designate that he will engage on the charter, on the forum. And that's stated in his draft statement of strategy. And what I would ask that you would consider, senators, is that I could facilitate a meeting with the CEO designate in advance of the next stage or report stage so that people go through these issues, these amendments that you have raised here at committee stage. I think it would be a valuable exercise. And you can see for yourself his commitment in relation to this engagement with all stakeholders and addressing many of the issues that you have raised here tonight. So we, thanks.