Danny Healy-Rae: Farmers confused, unpaid after 2023 partnerships

Deputy Healy Ray. Thank you very much. It's a bit confusing for a fellow like me, but anyway, there's like, and like Deputy Heald, these farms and things that have to be filled out, they're very confusing for farmers. In the first instance, they shouldn't be that way. And it's a fright to God that fellows get fouled up. And I have fellows there that were advised to go into partnership and since 2023 they haven't been paid their acres because they did that. And they were advised by certain people to do that. And there's little help coming from that quarter now to get them out of the not there in it to get the bit of money that they're waiting for. And the likes of me is being chiseled about it every day. What's we doing about that? That they won't pay the acres and where it is, it's 20, 23. But I suppose I like to have to get your story and maybe digest it in a few minutes like this, but I think it would only be fair and reasonable that he should be getting information from the department, not through taggers. He should be getting it directly from the department. But I suppose I can't see that he would expect to be trained. Seeing as they're a private, you know, he was saying that taggers are trained, but they're part of the department. But I don't know how he could expect anyone private could expect to be paid by the state. I must kind of trash that out myself a bit further. But I do think he should be getting the information at the same time and the same information as taggers. And, like, he do a good job, he has 55,000 customers, he say here and this. And I don't know how many clients taggers have, but I suppose it's clear that either of you they couldn't do the job on their own, so we need bought into this. And, you know, in the same way, for to do, what does, how many do farmers require? Any amount of them, I suppose. But there's a difference. Can you tell me how many will say farmers are in need of advice or do we anticipate need advice in the country at the present time, in the 26 countries? Just as I said, 125,000 farmers applied for business this year, 64,400 were done through the private advisory service providers, 41,000 by our counterparts in taggers. Can I make it very clear to you, Deputy, now? We are not looking for our wages to be paid. We are simply looking for access to accurate, timely information, which we are getting to a large extent from the Department of Agriculture through our ag food system. But we want to make sure that that's consistently delivered. But we also need to disseminate the latest information through the Knowledge Hub and through training of our members to prepare them for the future changes to regulations that are coming into effect on nitrates, for example, on the 1st of January. We're facing into a whole new cap support system post-2027. 31st of December, cap supports end. We're into a new programme. We have to be able to help and advise the clients that we're dealing with to be able to meet the challenges that they face, the minimum cuts in incomes. We have to look at a sustainable system in agriculture, and that's our primary job, to provide the best possible advice to achieve that. And are he saying at this exact moment that he has shot information or that he feels that he is not being funneled enough information or funneled the proper information or the full information at this point in time? We are getting information clearly from the Department of Agriculture. We need to ensure that there are improvements made in that, and as Owen says, there needs to be. We are calling for investment in IT resources to make sure that's delivered in time and it's as accurate as we possibly can. We can get that information from the Department. But we need as well to be training to be able to deliver what's ahead of us now in terms of the changes and regulations. We have that information. I suppose just to follow through there, Deputy Hilary, what we're actually really looking for is that we know that we're a really good resource. We're an army of advisors out there that can deliver to the farmers. And if we, just for a small investment of money, you can create a much better messaging system out to farmers. So if you spend a small amount of money in a national or a private hub to disseminate the information from the research, so the research goes into the hub and that goes to the trainers, if the advisors are trained to all the new information for water quality, air quality, biodiversity, then that will go down to the 63,000 farmers. And they're not disadvantaged versus the 43,000. That's the big difference. So it's not that we're looking for more money or more information. It's just really, we're all volunteers. We're doing our best to keep the organization together. We need to get supported or it's just going to be, it'll just wander along. And that's, if that happens, that's okay. But it's just a huge loss of an opportunity. Like, for example, the asset program or the EIPs, by not being included in those, you're just excluding 50, 60% of the potential clients to be in that. That's, so that's, that's what we really look, that's how it boils down to. Well, what we can do as deputies here is ask for a fair playing pitch for all of you. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. Can I ask the chair, does the Department of Agriculture feed into the information that you have? Like, there's so many of those people there. You have a huge amount of knowledge as well. I presume they're looking for that knowledge when it comes to derogation and everything like that. You know, I'm only saying it, like, they have a whole lot of knowledge, so I presume they're looking for that knowledge. We have an opportunity for another couple of minutes. Senator Ledge. Thanks very much, Cairlach. And thank you all for being with us today. I find your situation quite incredible. I've been thinking about it for the last 40 minutes or so as it's being discussed, and I can't quite believe it. So I suppose, firstly, I would just like to echo the comments of my colleagues in terms of we will be raising this directly with the Minister. There are so many things wrong with this, but I suppose when we're looking at, you know, you've been speaking a lot about derogation, and obviously on your part is the Royal German League. It's, well, derogation in Cork in general, but I suppose in terms of the water enhancement projects that are being carried out in German League. But when we're looking now at the Nitrates Action Plan 6 and also the new requirement in terms of the Habitat's Directive when it comes to retaining our derogation, like, is there not information there that she, as ACA across the country, will be able to feed back into our proposal when we are looking at our derogation proposal that it seems to be incredibly short-sighted because we're aware, you know, well, we're not aware as to the extent of the extension of time we're looking for for derogation in order to put our proposal together, in order to put together a proposal that fully includes the Habitat's Directive as has been requested by Commissioner Roswell. But we know it's going to take an awful long time to put that proposal together when we're looking at the watercourses all across the country. So, like, is there not a role for ACA there to also feed into that? I mean, there's the lack of ecologists, etc., which is a whole separate issue. But I suppose, is there not a role there for ACA to feed in? And is this not just incredibly short-sighted by the department to be treating ACA in this way? Thank you, Senator. I suppose there is a huge potential. And again, we met the nitrate section last week and we would love to be part of the sixth water group and we have a lot of experience to bring to the table. Again, the difficulty is, you know, it's going to take time and we're all working our own businesses and unless we can have a dedicated person that we can feed through our information, that's probably our resource. We're limited just by time ourselves. So, certainly if there is potential, you know, towards creating some sort of a conduit that we can get involved in it, we're more than welcome to take on board. Can I say to you, Senator, I was part of the Ag Water group there and I stepped down from that group there last December. Last December. And the reason that I did step down from it is the final report that went on the retention of the nitrate derogation to Europe did not include one mention, one mention of ACA, the private advisory service providers in Ireland. Despite the fact that I had attended all of the meetings and made what I felt were very positive contributions to that. Really positive contributions. We are 100 days out, as I said, from the next round of the nitrates regulations. We don't know whether or not we are going to have a derogation or not. The implications here, Morgan Sheehy, a classmate of mine, estimated that the implications of losing the derogation in Ireland, it was a 22% reduction in stock numbers nationwide. Or, if farmers wanted to retain their stocking levels as it currently, would require them to rent the equivalent of County Kildare in land area. It's astounding, the effects, and the trickle-down effect, as Noel has said, on every single farmer in the country. Yet we're 100 days out. If we don't get derogation, how are we going to prepare the clients that we're ready for it, to deal with the implications of that? Or, if we get it, will we have different regulations? We are going to have different regulations to deal with. How are we going to advise our clients properly on this? This is what we're talking about. We need the training. We need the access to that information so that our members can deliver that clear, consistent, professional message to the clients that we're dealing with are going to be impacted by the new nitrate regulations coming in stream. Thanks. And, look, I note that you met with department officials lately, but even within the past 12 months, has there been any satisfaction from either the minister or department officials in terms of what is essentially your exclusion from information, which is obviously not only of benefit to you, but, I mean, of massive benefit to your clients and the 60-plus thousand farmers across the country that you represent? To me, it's just, it truly is incredible. And there's the whole anti-competitive element as well when it comes to EAP. I wasn't aware of that before today. So, just in terms of any progress in general, because, you know, farming is under pressure. It's facing an awful lot of challenges. Anything that can be done, and particularly things like this knowledge sharing and access to information, that can be done at a, you know, a relatively low price. It's quite cost-effective in terms of information that's there already. So, just this exclusion, yeah, I kind of can't comprehend it. You've grey hairs for a reason. We have travelled down this road. As presidents, we have all made representations. We have gone with enthusiasm and with positivity into every single meeting that we have attended here. We have a good working relationship with sections within the Department of Agriculture, and that would be freely acknowledged. We have an excellent working relationship with our child's counterparts here as well. But critically important, we are looking for small asks. I would remind you to look at that second last page, the four key asks that we're looking for. By getting those supported, the multiplier effect in terms of the cost-benefit to the Irish taxpayer, but above all to Irish farming, is absolutely enormous. We need to fulfil that potential, and this is really our last chance. You are our last hope, if you like, in terms of getting that engagement and supporting us in terms of what we're trying to achieve.