Conor D McGuinness: Demands SFPA inspection figures now

I'm going to put a number of questions myself at this point of the meeting, and hopefully we'll get more in the way of answers than we did the last time. And I'll go back to a set of questions that I was asking the last time, and I didn't get satisfactory answers. I have no qualms in saying, but it relates to inspections at sea, and particularly inspections of factory vessels, both European Union flagged vessels and third country vessels. And Deputy Maxwell put the question, how many inspections of these vessels took place over the last five years? He got a partial answer, zero so far this year, four last year, but no figures for the previous year. So if I could put that question again, how many inspections at sea took place of both European and non-EU flagged factory vessels operating in Irish waters over the last five years? Thank you, Deputy. Yes, indeed, and as mentioned, we do have a lot of problems in relating to undertaking these inspections. I don't actually have the exact figures for the last five years. As I mentioned earlier, there's zero for this year for pelagic factory vessels, and there was four for last year for pelagic factory vessels. And do we know for 2024? I don't have those figures for the pelagic factory vessels. 2023. As mentioned, I don't have those figures for the pelagic factory vessels, but I do have the total figures for the non-EU vessels, OMS vessels and Irish vessels. So I asked a very particular question, and I'm the second member to ask it here. I asked it back in November as well, and as I said in November, I would expect that in preparation for this meeting that one of the five of you representing the SFPA would have access to that information. I'm saying this as chair of the Fisheries and Maritime Affairs Committee. It is not satisfactory that any agency or body of the state would come before any committee of the Oireachtas without having figures to hand. I mean, these are basic figures. You surely anticipated that this would be a point of questioning that several members have already put, and that I'm now as chairperson voting. So it is utterly satisfactory, and I think that has to be understood and accepted. And the next time you appear before this committee, please, if you need to bring further officials and have them behind you, if you need to bring reports and documentation, please have them with me, because it is utterly unsatisfactory at this point. My next question... Sorry. Go ahead. Have you the figures, Mr. Hayes? Sorry. Sorry. Have you the figures, Mr. Hayes? Because that is... I want an answer to my question, not an excuse. So we have figures for inspections at sea but we haven't figures specifically for factory freezer vessels to date, but we can supply those. But we can give you the figures in relation to factory vessels. Well, I asked a very specific question. I would like an answer to that specific question with respect. And you're offering me the answer to another question that I didn't ask is not satisfactory. So I hope you take that point. I do, Deputy, and we can certainly provide the information for you after this meeting. But we did ask, we did write to the clerk and ask him in advance of the meeting, was there any data in particular that the committee wanted either prior to the meeting? Sorry, I'm going to cut you off at this point, Mr. Hayes, because I have to say it is utterly frustrating that after the last meeting, we had a drip feed of responses back to questions that members had put in good faith. We have done our preparations out of these meetings. We take them seriously. And we have had a drip feed of responses coming back from SFPM. We're grateful for the information when it comes. But with respect, and this comes down to accountability and transparency, we don't need to provide you with lists of questions before you appear here to give your evidence. I mean, you told us at the last meeting that this is the only body effectively, outside of financial issues, this is the only body to which you are accountable. And we have this constant issue with trying to get answers. And I'd venture to say if you put as much effort maybe into preparing the facts and the data to respond to our questions, rather than the communications piece that you identified after the last meeting, perhaps we wouldn't be having this back and forth, and we'd just be getting on with the business of the meeting. I ask that you accept that. I absolutely accept that. We certainly will provide the data. To say the figures are small, Deputy, for the reasons that have been previously outlined, and that there is an issue with surface inspections at sea and the level of service provided by the Naval Service. So the figures are going to be in the region of what Ms. Patterson has quoted. So between zero and four per annum. Approximately. I would guess that's what it's going to be. Okay. But thank you for hazarding the guess, and I won't hold you to those exact figures, but I would ask that you would provide them by the end of the week. I think that's reasonable that you would have those provided by the end of the week to us. Of course, we should have them now. We'll do that, sure. Okay. Thank you. Moving on. If we have such a modest, to put it gently, inspection of these very large factory vessels operating in Irish waters, is there a risk, and is this a risk that you have identified that there will be overfishing where there is no inspection and there is no knowledge, certainly within the Irish authority, of that happening? And the second part of that question, is there a sharing of intelligence or data from other European Union fisheries protection agencies with regard to those vessels that do operate in Irish waters? Yeah. Certainly, as Ms. Patterson has already outlined, Chairman, we would like to be doing more surface inspections at sea. We use every asset, every surface asset that's available to us to get officers out there to do them. And the difficulties with the naval service are well known, and the figures are stark when you look at the decrease that I've outlined in the opening statement of the inspections at sea. In relation to the second part of your question, Deputy, without going into the specifics, yes, there is information shared between the different control authorities of Member States. And can I ask, is that soft information, or is it actionable data that can be shared and released? So, by way of example, Deputy, a logbook on a vessel over a certain size has to be completed by midnight every night, and that information is shared across all Member States electronically. And so, for example, when these factory vessels do eventually land their catch at a European Union port, for example, and I know some of them will land them at third country ports as well, to what extent has SFPA eyes on what comes off those ships? So, if it doesn't land in Ireland? Yes. So, to what extent are your colleague organisations in other European countries providing that information to you? So, the SFPA wouldn't have any eyes on it if it's landing in another Member State? So, effectively, just to summarise that, effectively, the state here and the government and its various arms and agencies is utterly blind to the amount of fish that is being taken caught in Irish waters by these factory ships. We have no oversight of that, barring the self-reporting in the logs. Well, it's replicated on the logbooks, but don't forget, Deputy, that, I mean, the concept of the common fisheries policy here is that there's an obligation on every Member State's control authorities to control their own vessels wherever they fish, the same way as Ireland has responsibility for the Irish EEZ, but also for Irish vessels wherever they fish. Wherever they fish. Okay. And I would venture to say that we have no assurance, and from your response there, there is no assurance that that is taking place, because we have no eyes on data. And that is a huge gap and a huge risk, and I think it's more of a risk than any other fishing activity in Irish waters. So, Ciarán, look, we're at the risk of getting into a political discussion here. The Commission's view is that outside 12 miles is European Union waters, and that the control activity is shared across the Member States while the vessels are fishing in Union waters, as they call them. But yet the SFPA does, when it possibly can, which isn't often, seemingly undertake at sea vessels. Absolutely. At the inspections of vessels. So each Member State has an obligation within their own EEZ to carry out control functions. So, insofar as the SFPA is able to, absolutely, we carry out control functions based on the risk criteria as outlined by Ms Patterson on vessels as much as we can. Deputy, if I may come in there just as well. While we have struggled to get surface assets out to undertake inspections at sea, we do undertake aerial surveillance of these particular vessels, and we've had such monitoring programmes underway this year, supported by the EFCA chartered aircraft, and we had inspectors not on board the craft, but examining the live feed coming back, and to follow up on any non-compliances, any and all non-compliances that were detected, in particular around these particular high risk vessels. Sorry to cut across, but that were detected is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, if you don't mind me saying so, that any and all sounds very good, but any and all that were detected in those very limited circumstances. I think that is what people watching this and Members here are very concerned about. Honestly, I can't go into the specifics of any individual cases, so I'm trying to be as general as possible, and I'm sure you appreciate that. So as I say, there is follow-up investigations underway in a number of circumstances relating to these particular vessels and this particular fleet following on from aerial surveillance. We also use satellite imagery as well, so we do make the best of the resources that are available to us in the absence of sea surface assets. Okay, and I think we all appreciate that the Naval Service here is utterly under-resourced, and it's laughable sometimes to hear government representatives talking about maritime security when we can't even have our factory vessels operating within our waters inspected. Finally, with the indulgence of the Members, because there will be a second round of questions, I won't come in for that, but we have some data here in terms of the numbers of files that have been prepared and sent to the DPP in each year. How many files have been prepared and sent to the DPP by SFPA relating to factory vessels, infringements by factory vessels, both European Union and non-EU operating in Irish waters over the, well, we've 10 years of figures here, so in the last 10 years. Okay, look, I'll explain that we don't have a breakdown per type of vessel. We have a breakdown in terms of the flag vessel, but if it's a factory vessel or a non-factory vessel, we wouldn't have that particular breakdown, however, we can provide that data. Okay, have you it by Irish flagged vessel versus EU flagged, non-Irish EU flagged vessel versus third country flagged vessel in terms of files sent to the DPP. So for ATSI inspections. And give me maybe last year just as an example. Sure, yeah, so last year. In 2025 there were 14 case files submitted in relation to ATSI inspections. One was for a Spanish vessel, two for French vessels, two for German vessels, and nine for Irish vessels. Can you explain why there is significantly more Irish vessels? Is that because they tend to be fishing in areas that are easier to carry out a surface inspection? Because I think any of us who is watching the transponder data will see that there is a lot of European Union flagged vessels operating in Irish waters. As mentioned earlier, Deputy, over 92% of the activity within the Irish EEZ is by Irish vessels. 92% of fishing activity? Fishing activity is by Irish vessels. And are we talking by ton of fish caught or are we talking by individual vessels? Give me two seconds and I'll get to the tonnage as well because I have that. In relation to tonnage from the EEZ, 55.5% of tonnage caught in the Irish EEZ is by Irish vessels. 27.7% is by other member states' vessels and 16.8% is by non-EU vessels. 55% by Irish vessels and we're talking about, so that's a long way off 92 and that's why I wanted to ask that question in terms of tonnage and in terms of individual vessels because we understand that there are smaller inshore vessels and smaller offshore vessels that operate closer to the coast but our EEZ is huge. I better pass over to other members.