Danny Healy-Rae demands action on nurses' pension abatement

Ministers, I want to discuss with you the pension abatement for retired nurses who returned to work during COVID. I would like to discuss the abating of pensions for retired nurses, again, and other workers who returned to vaccination centres and went back into wards, and who, community settings, they were highly experienced people, and they answered the call and they came back to work, and they were told that their pensions wouldn't be affected. Some went into mental health, into the camp's clinical liaison support team. They were told they could work up to 19 and a half hours and it wouldn't affect their pensions. They brought many years of experience and knowledge with them. And everything was going grand until the Department of Finance intervened sometime late in 2022 and told the HSE that this wouldn't be so and that the pensions would be abated. But the HSE never relayed that to their workers. The workers didn't know. They continued on along the way that they were working. And the HSE, HR section, especially in HSE South, told the workers everything would be all right. Now, the story is the Department of Finance and Revenue are looking, the pensions side of it, are looking for tax back, money back. Some have been asked to pay back 2,700, 4,000, 5,000. And one individual who had, he went back into mental health. He was a highly qualified individual. He's been asked to pay back 25,000. And this is totally and absolutely wrong. Now, these workers, would you believe it, are still working now through the agency, the agency, these health agencies that are providing work, they're supplying the people to the HSE at an extra cost of about 25% because, as you know, the work must be done. The people with the mental health problems, the people in the hospitals, the work needs to be done. So the HSE are employing agency workers. And it's costing 25% more because, you know, there's an embargo that hiring all new nurses. I've just raised several times before, which is wrong. But these people are so good that they're continuing to work. They're just getting the same amount, but the agencies are charging 25 or 30% on top of this. Ministers, I'm asking you to look at this. There's a number of people, I seem to have an awful lot of them on my books. They're ringing me every day. They're ringing in the office and say, can we do something about it? I raised it here inside before in the last government. And it's still the same. People are still getting these demands. And it's not fair to put them through this at this age of their life. But they're upwards to 70 years and 71 and 72 years, many of them. And it's not fair. And I'm asking you to intervene now as new ministers, as a new government, to deal with this and get it out of the way. And to please look at the agency situation where even the girl that came back to her job after three years of a career break, she won't get her job back in Cork and CUH. She's been told there's no job there for her at the present time. She left her job and took a career break. And now she's not being allowed back. You must deal with this, minister. She's very serious and to treat people like this, who came back and put their own families at risk by going out working, going into vaccinations, into wars. They put themselves and their own families at risk to do this for the state. Thank you and firstly, I want to thank Deputy Healy Ray for raising this issue today. And before I start, it's important to acknowledge the incredible work performed by all nurses and the key role they play in delivery of essential health services to those most in need across the country, not only during COVID, but every day of the week. This government is committed to supporting and continuing to grow the nursing workforce. We have seen unprecedented growth in the health sector workforce with record levels of recruitment in the HSE over the past five years. There are over 29,000 more staff working in the health system today than there was at the beginning of 2020, an increase of over 24%, which includes an additional 10,154 nurses and midwives. According to the most recent OECD report, Ireland has 12.8 practising nurses per 1,000 population, which is the second highest number amongst the report in EU countries, second only to Finland. In comparison, the UK currently has 8.7 nurses per 1,000 population. It is true that during COVID, many retired nurses returned to work in the HSE to support the national response to the pandemic. Under normal circumstances, when a retired or public or civil servant returns to work in the public sector, they can only be reimbursed to the value of their final salary, and their pension is abated accordingly during the period of employment. However, to support retired workers to return to work during the COVID emergency, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform approved a temporary waiver of pension abatement. In effect, this meant that those retired workers could receive the full benefit of their salary and their pension. This temporary COVID emergency waiver ended on 31 March 2021, and abatement policy for the health sector returned to normal, in line with all other sectors. It is the case that some of retired persons remained in employment beyond March 2021 date. The Department of Health issued a communication to the HSE on 15 January 2021, informing them that the waiver was to cease on 22 January 2021. And the HSE issued a communication to their own management teams. This information was also made available to all staff on the HSE website. Unrelated to the COVID waiver, Depender issued further guidance in December 2022, which clarified the rules regarding pension abatement and the methodology for the calculation of same. The HSE in return issued their own memo, 059 2024 and early 2024, outlining the content of deeper guidance. As a result of this new guidance, that abated employees are currently being assessed by the HSE for compliance. All retired public servants who are re-employed by any public service body are subject to pension abatement rules. The HSE are obliged to apply the regulations that are in place and to calculate and apply abatement as laid down in Depender Circular 24-20-22, as of the 1st of January 2023. I am aware that many retired nurses choose to work in private agency companies and that they can do so without any impact on their pension. However, the Department and the HSE are committed to reducing the reliance on use of agency staff and to fill vacancies through direct employment in the 1st instance in order to build a sustainable workforce for the future. In fact, reaffirming this commitment was a major ask of all representative bodies during the recent WRC negotiations regarding staff. Thank you. Thank you, Minister, and thank you for coming in under time. Deputy. Minister, I thank you for coming in here this morning to answer my question about this. And first of all, I do not thank you for reading out all the kudos that you're claiming about the amount of people that you've employed in the HSE, the extra people. Clearly, the HSE are the wards and the hospitals and the staff are understaffed. And what I'm saying to you about this particular episode is these people that came back to work did so out of the goodness of their heart in the first place when they see the country was under pressure. They were told that pensions would not be affected. Then the Department of Finance came along and said that they would be affected. But when they queried this with the HSE, they told they were safe to work away. And this is what they did. And now it is ongoing, and that's what I'm asking you to sort out. It's not fair in these people. And, you know, I take these people's word because they worked for the HSE, they worked for the country, most of them for over 40 years. And there was never a question about their relinting and their duties or not complying with their duties. And this is what they are saying to me. They were told by the HSE South that they were safe. and to work away. And until it was highlighted here by myself in the Dáil, then some of them stopped working and went to doing agency work, doing the same work. Now, I believe these people, and I'm asking you to look at what happened. Because clearly HSE, HR told them that they were safe to stay working. And that's what they did. And they didn't leave the people down. I know some of these people were dealing one-to-one with patients that maybe would have committed suicide or done a lot worse. And they felt an honest on them to keep working. And when they got the nod from the HSE that they were safe and that they were to be sorted out with the Department of Finance, that's what they did. I want you to start this out and take no more tax or extra money out of their pictures. Thank you, Deputy. Thank you, and I want to thank you, Deputy. And I can see the passion. And, you know, I do understand and it is important to reiterate our appreciation for the work carried out by all our healthcare workers throughout the pandemic, including those individuals who returned from retirement to help their colleagues and the public when they needed it most. And I do understand that. The temporary waiver of pension abatement was introduced at a time of great need. The normal rules of the pension abatement are that waivers will only be granted in exceptional circumstances for a limited period of time. In this case, they ceased to operate from March 2021. And I know I have said that to you, Deputy, already. But when new circulars are introduced, the HSE National Pension Payments team are mandated to apply the regulations in force regarding the abatement, specifically the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform Circular 24 2022. As of the 1st of the 1st, 2023, the HSE are obliged to circulate and apply abatement as laid down in the circular. It is important to know that the HSE are only reviewing compliance from this date on and not for the duration of the temporary COVID waiver. The government is committed to supporting the ongoing recruitment and growth of our health service workforce. Reliance on retired workers and exemptions from the principle of pension abatement is not a durable solution of one that should be relied on upon a long term. There has been unprecedented level of investment by this government in the health service workforce in recent years, with over 29,000 more staff working in our health service today than there was at the beginning of 2020. Funding provided in 2024 and 2025 will allow the HSE to recruit an additional 7,000 staff in 2025, in addition to replacing department staff. The government is also committed to enhancing the supply of new graduates by increasing training places. Since 2014, first-year nursing places in Irish higher education institutions have grown by 50%. An additional 122 additional nurses and midwifery places were provided in Northern Ireland 2023, and a further 78 additional nursing places provided in 2024. But I do thank you for bringing this and highlighting it. And I will go back again to the department and I want to thank you, Deputy, for highlighting this. Thank you, Minister. Thank you.