Richard O'Donoghue: Cap Fuel Tax at 170 - Dáil Clash

Taoiseach, I need you to listen very carefully to this one now. You keep standing up here and you keep saying that the protests in this country, right, and you keep mentioning the war. I have to let it on the record for you now why the protests happened in this country. The protests in this country happened on the taxation, on the increase on the fuel. So I'm just going to show you now how you can actually counteract this and I've said it on numerous occasions. If you capped the price of fuel that you take your tax, very same as your income tax for every worker in this country, if you cap the cost of fuel that you take your tax on. So I'll just give you a small summary at the moment. At the moment you've done 192 for the whole of your sector, OK? That equals minus the VAT gives you 156, plus you have to put a package in place which probably most of them won't be able to qualify because most of them are under pressure, not only the householders in arrears, but they're also in arrears, most companies, everyone are in arrears. If you capped the fuel costs, repayments for their trucks, repayments, tax arrears, so they can't qualify for your package, OK? But simply for everyone in this country, for everyone in this country, you cap, you, excuse me when I'm talking, you cap the fuel prices at 170 for white diesel. For everyone. That means you wouldn't have to put the package in place for the hauliers and everyone else in this country. It actually would include the package that you're coming out with. But what that would come back to is if you cap it, it creates stability across the country and also creates forecasting for 12 months. So what has to happen here, at every budget going forward, and now until the next budget, you have to put in a cap on what you'll take on taxes. So if you have 170 at the moment on tax, even with the war, if there was an increase on the fuel, we wouldn't be even at 193 at the moment. It's the tax on the increased cost is bringing us to 220. If you cap the fuel, all businesses are covered, anyone that's registered can claim back the VAT. That puts it a stable economy. I can't understand why you can't actually look at this. You can do the same with green diesel for everyone in the agricultural sector or whatever sector that uses it. You can do the same with kerosene, which covers all the packages that you're talking about, home heating, that people are reliant on it. You can do the same with petrol. That means every worker in this country, every person that's caring for people, including the Gardaí, the nurses, the carers, the fire service, across the board, have something at source. But you have to give the cap, which creates the stability for that to work. Take your taxes up to 170, but after that, no more tax. That gives a business, and I spoke to so many business people and everyone agrees with me. Thank you. Taoiseach to respond. First of all, just deal with that issue. The spin all along has been that we've taken in more from VAT increase than we've actually given in terms of reductions. That's not true. The bottom line now is because of the measures that we took on the 13th of April, the percentage of the taxation component of the price of a litre of Euro super 95 petrol is set to fall to 44% compared with 50 to 58% it was at the end of March. So the measures we have brought in have de facto significantly reduced the tax component of the price of fuel. So our overall package was about 750 million. The cost of that package, actually, I would acknowledge is 670, because we would have gained about 82 million in terms of the VAT component of it. So this idea that we're getting more back, no, on a cap, we do not favour capping the price of diesel or petrol. We think specific fuel support packages for farmers and for contractors. You're just automatically assuming that most of the people won't benefit from the package. And you sort of said because of arrears, and I wasn't quite clear what you were saying, but I accept you have to be tax compliant, but I would argue the vast majority are tax compliant. And indeed, if you work with revenue, revenue varieties that are going to be flexible and so on like that. If people have arrears with others, that doesn't mean you're not entitled to the package if you're in arrears with others. You will be entitled to the package. It's a substantial package, and particularly in road haulage, the sector were quite satisfied with the nature of the package. The package for contractors and for farmers is quite extensive, over 100 million, a very, very significant reduction in the costs, and people will be able to benefit from it. You haven't set out with precision why you believe that the vast majority will not be entitled to it. And I'd like you to explain why you think the vast majority will not be entitled to it. Because, no, I mean, it's an important point here now, because we have put forward a very significant package. There's no question about that. To get down the cost, and the figures are there, in terms of how substantial the reduction is compared to what the tax component was, and we will work out the package for farmers and for contractors, and we'll be in a position to outline those shortly. And I would say more generally, we have also provided a range of other supports to people, generally across other sectors of the economy, also. Thank you Taoiseach. Now Deputy O'Donoghue. Taoiseach, is it known you've never been involved in business, because you wouldn't understand stability and forecasting if you did? And it seems everything you've discussed is package. Is there one package there for the working person in this country that's travelling? And you're talking about 2.3 million vehicles, right? You mentioned the road hauliers. Road hauliers, in this package, right, is 17% of the haulage in this country in transport network. That includes the Irish truck and haulage. You don't get a subsidy until this package was introduced, if you were drawing your own goods. Now they're included in this package. This is what I'm talking about. But if you've done what I told you, on a cap on the cost of fuel, you don't have to introduce any package. Everything works out itself. So the person going to work in their car, in their van, regardless of what they're going in, the package on the likes of white diesel, everyone gets it. Everyone on petrol will get it. That means not only the householders get it, but all the businesses up along, and anyone that's registered, can claim their VAT back, which reduces their cost for providing stuff for people. I'm not talking about a package for this person, I want a package for everyone, and a caps equals everyone, not just one sector. Have you costed it? Yeah. How much? The same revenue you had six weeks ago is the exact same revenue you will have today. No, that's not the way. So there's no package. No, this is a falsehood that you're presenting. No, sorry, Taoiseach, excuse me. He did, but I... Can I answer your question? No, you won't, Deputy. Can I answer? No, I think you need... I'll do a live debate. Taoiseach, excuse me. It doesn't work like that. There you go. Live debate. It doesn't work like that, Taoiseach. Come on. You may further engage outside this forum. I'm not speaking through the chair. Yes, through the chair. No, no, I'm asking, you don't expect the Deputy to answer you. You can further engage. He can ask a question. I can ask a question. He can ask a question, absolutely. I can. I would... Yes, but don't give the answer here. You may need further engagement. Enough, Deputy. Taoiseach will now... No, the Taoiseach will... Please, Deputy. The Taoiseach will now finish his response, without interruption. I'm entitled to pose a rhetorical question in the form of a debate. Yes, you are. You are. It's you that aren't entitled to answer. But I would make the point, Deputy. Look, I know you were involved in the protests, and I know you took a role in some of that, and you were deciding who was going to get on and who wasn't. Deputy, stop. Thank you, Taoiseach. He doesn't want to listen. Time is up. Time is up. Time is up. Time is up. Time is up. Time is up. Time is up. Time is up. Time is up. Deputy, he doesn't wish to hear the response. I've worked with you before. I'm doing a lot of shouting and roaring here today in the Chamber. You've asked me about different things in the past. Plenty of times you have, Mr. Deputy, and I've responded to you. Thank you, Taoiseach. And I've treated you courteously. Thank you. All I'm saying to you is I have no difficulty discussing this with you any time. Thank you.