Paul Murphy: Let the People Decide on the Triple Lock

Minister, you want to scrap the triple lock. You want to be able to send Irish troops abroad on international missions outside of the framework of international law. You want to be able to send Irish troops on NATO-led missions, US-led missions. That's your political position. I think that equates to getting rid of neutrality, but that's up to you. My question is, will you allow the people to decide? Opinion poll after opinion poll has shown public support for neutrality, shows public support for the triple lock. Will you allow the people to decide on this question rather than making the decision for yourself? I'm going to answer that question on behalf of the minister. Look, as the minister has already outlined, this legislation is a key priority for the government. And the commitment to reform the triple lock, necessary reform, is set out in the program for government. The triple lock is a statutory mechanism established under statute. It's not a constitutional mechanism, and it doesn't require a referendum. And the deputy has criticized NATO leadership of missions when, in fact, he completely ignores that our troops have been under NATO command in Kosovo for the last 25 years on a NATO-led mission, which in that case has a UN mandate. The deputy says that we're going to do missions in breach of international law. The opposite is exactly the case. Everything that we do has to be in accordance with international law, with the United Nations principles, and our constitution, which sets out very, very clearly that this is a peaceful country and we want friendly relations with people. We're a country that does this. The truth is, if the triple lock continues, there'll be no more peacekeeping. That's the reality, because the UN has not mandated any new missions. Irini, the minister has already given the example of Operation Irini, a really important mission. Irish troops left that mission Monday of last week. That mission continues. In accordance with UN law, in accordance with international law, in accordance with the UN law of the sea, but our people had to come home. And the impact is not just on the mission. They had to come home. They did. It's not just the UN law. Sorry. It is continuing. It is continuing. It is continuing. It's continuing. And most of the member states are part of it. That's the reality. It's continuing to do really important work, really important work to enforce a UN arms embargo in relation to Libya, but also doing, by the way, very important humanitarian work as well. And that's really, really important. Our people had to leave. And what we're losing there as well, what we're losing is the experience that they are gaining on these missions with all of the European colleagues. The European colleagues are all still out there doing that work today. We are not. And that is all the triple lock is about. There is no other EU country, and I would say no other country, that requires this triple lock that we have. And as Dermot O'Hearn said, the minister who was here at the time, when this was obviously a big issue, he said that was then. This is now times of change. He said this this weekend. And we believe it's no longer fit for purpose, that it must change. And that is the reality, because UNIFIL is ending this year. There may well be an invitation from the Lebanese government to countries to have a peacekeeping mission there. That may well happen. I don't know when it happened. There may well be discussions about that. But under the triple lock, we can't be there. We cannot be there under the current legislation. So all we're trying to do is reform this so that we can continue to be involved in peacekeeping. And I think that that is really important. We've had extensive public consultation in this area. The consultative forum on international security policy was convened, opened to the public. The forum facilitated a broad national conversation on Ireland's foreign defense and security policy. The forum brought together a wide range of stakeholders, including civilian and military experts, academics, current and former members of the defense forces, representatives of international institutions, and members of the public. It was held over four days in Cork, Galway, and Dublin. But 1,000 people went in person, and 10,000 people looked at it online. 850 written submissions were received. In reforming the triple lock, we will do so in a manner that remains fully consistent with our legal principles and moral values as a nation. In fact, our constitution specifies that. We will act in accordance with our obligations under international law. And Ireland's continued commitment is to multilateralism, to peacekeeping, the principles of the UN Charter, the very work that UNIFIL is doing, and was doing until the end of the mandate, and the very work that IRINI continues to do. We cannot take part in no longer. Our people came out that day. Nobody else was affected. The proposals to reform the triple lock are consistent with our policy of military neutrality. There are neutral countries today, part of IRINI. And we're focused on ensuring that Ireland has the capacity to act responsibly and effectively in the service of international peace. Thank you, Minister. I'll take Deputy Murphy on a supplementary, and then Deputy Toby. Can I come in for the first 30 seconds, though? I don't think so. No, I don't think so. It's a minute each, and then the Minister will take two. It's a joke, the idea that there's been any real public consultation here. Micheál Martin said, he said we were going to have a citizens' assembly on neutrality. That was scrapped. And instead, you replaced it with your consultative forums packed with warmongers, with NATO heads, with academics with links to the military-industrial complex. That was your public consultation. What a joke. Allow the people to decide. Give the people a referendum. If you're so confident in your arguments, well then, let's have it out. And let's allow the people to decide. Let me quote to you Minister Robert Troy. Ireland's position on the use of force where there is no UN mandate or authorisation is well-established and known. For fear that anyone is in any doubt, let me be clear, it is wrong and it is illegal. Do you agree with Minister Troy, or do you not? Because all the Triple Lock does, all it does is ensure that any mission we go on has a UN mandate or authorisation. That's the whole point of it. Why didn't this get extended by the UN? Why not? Because it's no longer just about Libya. Let's be honest, it's about Russia. It's about the Russian Shadow Fleet. Why on earth should Irish troops be chasing the Russian Shadow Fleet in the Mediterranean? That would be a breach of neutrality. It's perfectly correct that we're not going to be participating in that. Deputy Tobin. I think it's very clear to anybody who examines the reality of this situation that the Triple Lock is simply about maintaining our role as peacekeepers. The issue of neutrality is completely different. We are not taking sides with anybody. We enforce the Shadow Fleet, by the way, ourselves. We enforce it with other countries. Operation Irini continues to do excellent work in accordance with international law. It's enforcing international law on the Mediterranean, doing really important humanitarian work. The circumstances have changed dramatically. The mandate that I certainly feel I have is the Fianna Fáil election manifesto. We had an election on that since, because things changed, because all of this changed. There is no European Union defence union. There is no defence alliance at the European Union level. We cannot enter that. The people put that in the constitution. That can't happen. And it's very, very wrong to mix those things up. We cannot become part of a European Common Defence. There are no proposals for European Common Defence. Our decision on the Triple Lock is simply about making our own decisions here in Ireland, in this Dáil, as to where our troops go, that we make these decisions in the best interest of peace, in the best interest of international law, and indeed in the best interest of our military and its members as well. That is what this is about. There is the members opposite seek to ascribe a conspiracy to the government in relation to this about wars. We've heard it all. And I would say in relation to Colin Murphy, Britain and Dukas, Trihula and Hutt, you know, once Russia's mentioned, you get all agitated. You mentioned Russia. You mentioned Russia. And you became very agitated because this is about Russia. It is about Russia, actually, because it's about Russia and other countries vetoing proposals at the UN Security Council. And because of that veto power, it was not possible to get a mandate renewed for Operation Irene. And in any event, for all of the other countries there who are enforcing international law and peace and security, they didn't need this mandate. The decision of the Security Council stands. Deputy Murphy on a supplementary. The minister claims he has a mandate. The minister claims he has a mandate. What does the Fianna Fáil Manifesto say? Continue to protect and promote Ireland's military neutrality, including sensible reform of the Triple Lock legislation. But that's not what you're doing, is it? The Triple Lock is gone. Gone entirely. You look at the heads of bill. That makes it clear. The heads of bill said the bill will provide for the removal of the Triple Lock. It's gone. You don't have a mandate for this. You look at the presidential election. You look at opinion poll after opinion poll. People are attached to neutrality, and they're not stupid. They know, just as Micheál Martin said, that the Triple Lock is at the core of our neutrality. Why? Because it's the only thing that stops this government or any future government sending Irish troops to participate in any sort of imperialist intervention anywhere in the world. It is the only legal thing that stops you. It was said at the committee. At the committee, it was said, without the Triple Lock, Irish troops could have been sent to participate in the invasion of Iraq. You allowed them to use Shannon. That was said at the committee by the top civil servant. You allowed them to use Shannon Airport. If it wasn't for the Triple Lock, you could have sent Irish troops abroad. That's what the Triple Lock's about. And I would also just ask again, do you agree with what Robert Troy said or not? Allow the minister, please. And while it's nice to hear a socialist quoting the Fianna Fáil Manifesto, and I certainly appreciate your examination of the manifesto. Allow the minister, please. You haven't quoted the Constitution, which governs everything we do. The Constitution says, in Article 29.1, Ireland affirms its devotion to the ideal of peace and friendly cooperation amongst nations founded on international justice and morality. Ireland affirms its adherence to the principle of the Pacific settlement of international disputes by international arbitration or judicial determination. That's what governs this government, governs this Dáil, and it governs our military. That is what we do. We do peace, we do friendly cooperation, and we accord with the principles of international law. And that's what we will do. And if there are peace missions out there that are going to take place, but perhaps at the invitation of countries affected, maybe like Lebanon, we would like to be able to make a decision properly here in the Dáil, maybe involving an eruptus committee to examine every aspect of it, make a decision here. But we cannot be allowing countries that some of you will castigate, but still allow them to have a veto over our foreign policy, over our decisions. We're governed by the Constitution, we're governed by this Parliament, and that's all we're trying to do here. Operation Irini continues, that goes on, our people came home. That is the reality of the Triple Lock, and it's a reality that is wrong for this country. It is a reality that is wrong for a sovereign country. And it is wrong that if there are discussions with the Lebanese government about future peace missions there, it's wrong that we would not be involved in them because of the Triple Lock.