Barry Ward: Supports trade ban but warns of its limits
Barry Ward speaks in the chamber in support of proposed legislation to ban trade with the occupied territories, drawing on personal visits to the West Bank and Gaza and condemning abuses on all sides. He argues the bill is morally justified but cautions it will have limited practical impact unless backed by wider European action.
First-hand experience: Barry Ward describes time spent in the occupied territories, including Hebron and Gaza City, and recounts witnessing violence and security operations. He uses these observations to explain why he supports the principle of banning trade with the occupied territories.
Legal and practical limits: Ward sets out why he believes the legislation is morally right yet largely unenforceable alone. He explains that international and European law constrain what this chamber can achieve and why sanctions proposed elsewhere may face legal barriers.
Condemning violence on both sides: Ward condemns the October 23 attacks by Hamas and criticises Hamas for sacrificing civilians, while also describing Israel's response as unconscionable and, in his view, genocidal. He stresses the need for unequivocal condemnation of both actions.
Ireland's role and the European solution: Ward defends Ireland's early and vocal stance on Palestinian suffering, and credits the government for building a coalition of EU states prepared to take action. He concludes that Ireland cannot end the slaughter alone and calls for Europe to broker the confidence and coordinated measures required.
Consequences and politics: Ward acknowledges possible diplomatic consequences from other jurisdictions but rejects making laws based on foreign reactions. He also regrets the bill's omission of services and argues that enforceability alone should not prevent legislating on principle.
First-hand experience: Barry Ward describes time spent in the occupied territories, including Hebron and Gaza City, and recounts witnessing violence and security operations. He uses these observations to explain why he supports the principle of banning trade with the occupied territories.
Legal and practical limits: Ward sets out why he believes the legislation is morally right yet largely unenforceable alone. He explains that international and European law constrain what this chamber can achieve and why sanctions proposed elsewhere may face legal barriers.
Condemning violence on both sides: Ward condemns the October 23 attacks by Hamas and criticises Hamas for sacrificing civilians, while also describing Israel's response as unconscionable and, in his view, genocidal. He stresses the need for unequivocal condemnation of both actions.
Ireland's role and the European solution: Ward defends Ireland's early and vocal stance on Palestinian suffering, and credits the government for building a coalition of EU states prepared to take action. He concludes that Ireland cannot end the slaughter alone and calls for Europe to broker the confidence and coordinated measures required.
Consequences and politics: Ward acknowledges possible diplomatic consequences from other jurisdictions but rejects making laws based on foreign reactions. He also regrets the bill's omission of services and argues that enforceability alone should not prevent legislating on principle.
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Transcript
Go raibh maith agat, Alascairn Comhairle, Minister, I support the Bill. This is not an issue to which I'm a stranger. I've spent quite a lot of time in the occupied territories in the West Bank, in Gaza. I have been there when the, I've witnessed the way the Israeli defence forces have behaved and thankfully never been a direct victim. But I have had stones thrown at me by Israeli settlers in Hebron so I have seen firsthand what is there. I've seen sonic bombs being flown over Gaza City and I understand what's happening there. I have been consistently over 25 years appalled by the manner which Israel has behaved towards Palestinian people, the disgraceful attitude and actions that they have perpetrated over that time and long before that. There is no doubt but that this legislation is entirely morally justified and important from the point of view of the principle that is at stake. However I don't think we should be dishonest either or unrealistic about what it is actually going to achieve. The reality is that banning trade with the occupied territories, whether that includes goods and services or not, is going to have very little impact in real terms on the conflict that shocks and disgusts us all. And so for that reason I didn't support Deputy Boyd Barrett's Bill recently which sought to introduce sanctions on Israel. However much I morally supported and thought it would be wonderful to put it in place, I don't think it is reasonable to suggest to people that that can be done because I don't think legally it can. And so we as members of this chamber are bound by the restrictions of international law and indeed European law and the abilities that we have to restrict trade for example. And so I think it's important for us absolutely and unequivocally to condemn what Israel has done and is doing. Equally to condemn the precipitation of the most recent attacks since October 23 by Hamas and the way that they have essentially sacrificed their own population of ordinary innocent civilians on their altar of their political and war ambition. It's disgraceful for them but the resulting overreaction from Israel is unconscionable, illegal and genocidal in my view. So this bill makes sense in that regard but we also have to have regard to what it can and can't achieve. And I will say this, I regret that the bill doesn't include services. I think it should. I recognize that it is largely unenforceable. I recognize that fact but there are lots of laws in this country that are not enforceable. We are not saying for example that nobody speeds. We're not saying that no people under 18 buy alcohol. We're not saying that people don't break the law. The fact that a law can be broken or is difficult to enforce is not a good reason not to put it in there. And I understand that that argument against it. I also understand that there may be consequences from other jurisdictions in terms of passing this but we do not make laws in this chamber on the basis of what other countries think about those laws. However I also recognize a reality of the situation and I would not underestimate the effect that Ireland has had in this conflict. When Hamas did commit that attack in October 23 they precipitated a reaction from Israel that was entirely predictable if appalling. But for a long time after that Ireland was the only voice in the Western world and in the European Union speaking against that. We were certainly the first country to come out and actually voice what was happening to the Palestinian people. And there is a bravery in that that I fear has never been properly recognized in this chamber, certainly by anybody in the opposition. And it is worth recognition because although there has been relentless criticism of the government's actions since then, the reality is that your government, you Minister McEntee, Minister Harris, the Taoiseach, they have built a coalition of European countries who are now supporting action against Israel and supporting criticism of Israel, whether that is Spain or Malta or Slovenia or Belgium or the Netherlands. That is the way we will actually achieve something here. We cannot do it alone. No matter what bills we pass here we cannot stop the slaughter in Gaza. But Europe can. And the disappointing thing is that we have not yet brokered that real confidence at European level to stop this from happening and that's what we really need to do.