Rose Conway-Walsh: Who Controls Irish Defence Exports?

Thank you very much. I think this is a very important discussion to have. Now, everybody agrees that our defence forces need to be fit for purpose and I think everybody shares the concerns that we have, particularly around sonar and radar and our readiness and preparedness and all that, so we can take that off the table. But I suppose this begs a couple of questions and the first question would be, like, there's huge money to be made in this space. As you said yourself, 4.5 billion, 800 billion is going to be spent within the EU. So there is an awful lot of lobbying and industry lobbying to get the maximum amount of money, obviously, out of the space for that. So the first question we beg for me is why do we need to insert subsidies into that space when there's so much money already there? And the other question is, obviously, how can we have control over what's made here? And absolutely, if there's uniforms to be made for the Irish defence forces, why would they not be made in Ireland and why would jobs not be created by that or other technical stuff that needs to be done? But I think what we need to be assured of as a committee is firstly not to be injecting subsidies into where they don't need to be injected and secondly, how can we have control and further control over how those goods are used? And it is very obvious to us at the moment that notwithstanding the licensing restrictions and other restrictions that are there, that they're not as effective as they need to be to reassure the Irish public that the destinations for some of these materials aren't controlled. So I think they're the two key questions in terms of the need to inject subsidies and then what controls that we're going to have. And certainly, I would not want to see a minimisation of the controls that were already there. In fact, I would say there needs to be greater controls now because there's so much more money at stake. So they're my two cues that I'd like you to address, Minister, around those two things. Thank you, Deputy Conway-Walsh. The Minister to respond. Thank you, Cahirlach. We'll obviously be very aware of the changes to InvestEU as a successor and the European Competitive Fund has brought about a €409 billion budget. That's very well documented. They're stating about €131 billion will be in the area of resilience, security and defence. That's about 392% of an increase over the previous iteration. And what we're trying to do here is, in areas that are strategically important to the Irish defence sector and Irish economy and our defence forces, that we are able to use our SMEs to leverage investment in areas of critical importance that I mentioned, like cyber security, the work we have to do in maritime surveillance and space technology. And we have some Irish companies that are right at the forefront of innovation in those spaces. We have companies that are currently working with the European Space Agency, which has increased significantly over the last decade. We obviously are part of the Artemis Accord now, which has been recently signed in exploration in a peaceful manner of space. And it's trying to leverage that investment so that our Irish SMEs can benefit. This is a long way beyond uniforms. This is modern technology, ensuring that our SMEs, our businesses, our employees can benefit from that investment, and particularly the investment that our own defence forces will be using through its capital investment programme over the next number of years, that it can use our Irish companies, that we're not reliant on overseas suppliers, that we can at least have an opportunity from an Irish perspective to tender for that investment. And this is not offensive work. We're absolutely very clear there is no policy change here. This is a procedural change to allow our agencies to work in a manner that involves less red tape going to Cabinet every time that they need to support a company in an area that's strategically important to a neutral country. And that's very much at the forefront. In relation to your export restrictions, our export controls have not changed, our policy has not changed in that area. We operate a very strict regime of licensing of where we have to see physical proof of the end user in any products that are exported, and that's managed through the department. In line with the policy decisions... Minister, we're not doing that. That's the problem. We are doing that. There'll be no policy change in that area. And in line with our European authorities of where, obviously, policy is set, we essentially investigate, check, through our export control regime, the end users and licenses are refused if it's a case that we are not satisfied of where, be it software or a product, ends up. So can you absolutely assure us, then, because the information that we have is contradicting what you're saying. So you're saying you know and you can stand over the end user of any of the products that are produced here right now by companies based in Ireland, you can stand over that? We have a very strict regime in place and the policy is very robust. So you can absolutely stand over that fact? I don't do the checks myself, as you can appreciate, but the policy we have set as a government is very robust and we're very clear in terms of our perspective as a neutral country and the work that we do to satisfy ourselves that the end users of any exports is in compliance with our regime. And that's policy perspective has not changed. Obviously this bill isn't about that, just to be aware of that. But I'm not going to argue, I'm telling you right now, our policy has not changed. So I can't go any further. You can argue about semantics, our policy has not changed. It's not semantics. I just need to be assured as we're going through this bill that the government absolutely stand over that you can be sure that the end user of any of the goods that are produced are not used in the way that we wouldn't want them used as a country and that is completely underpinned by our military neutrality. So that's the only assurance that I am seeking, that the government stands over it. Whatever minister it is, there has to be joined up thinking here anyway. But collectively as a government, you're giving me assurance here today that there's no goods produced in this country. All export licences are considered in compliance with obviously the European authorities which is very important and our own national priorities and they are investigated and we have to be assured where they end up in terms of the physical end point in any product or service. But how do we do those checks? No, no, far away, far away, Rosario. You know, I just need, like, do you physically go into these, what we're talking about here is a lot of, you know, transfer of a lot of money. So is there an ability of the government to go into these factories or operations or you know, whether it's tech or whatever, to satisfy themselves that yes, I know that what is being produced here is in, you know, satisfies our military neutrality and that it satisfies us that it's not going to the wrong sources.