Richard Boyd Barrett: 7.5m State Aid - Environmental or Military?

Okay, just on foot of the answer you just gave to Deputy Walsh there, can I just clarify then what on page 5 of the bill Line 33, is it? Without prior permission, section 21b 3 Without the prior permission of the government, the total amount of money granted to a particular undertaking under this section shall not exceed in the aggregate the higher of 7.5 million or 7.5 million in excess of the aggregate amount of grants provided to the undertaking etc. etc. What is that referring to if there's a limit of 300,000? That's referring to state aid rules that you can't go beyond 7.5 million. So why are you talking about 300,000 a year over the three years? But state aid rules obviously dictate that the 7.5 million is for a technology acquisition, that anything has to be notified to cabinet if it increases beyond that threshold. But then you can go up to that threshold. So the grants can be up to 7.5 million without notification. So 7.5 million is the national limit, but you can't go beyond, with state aid rules, beyond a 300,000. 7.5 million is the national limit, but you can't go beyond 300,000 with state aid rules. I mean, I'm looking at the list. It's very confusing. I think you could understand, right? I don't see the figure 300,000 anywhere. I do see the figure 7.5 million. It's in European legislation, the 300,000. Why have we got 7.5 million in it? Because that's the national limit. So Europe has a limit of 300,000, but we have a limit of 7.5 million? Yes, because there was flexibility that state aid rules can change quite dramatically and quite quickly. So the national limit was 7.5 million. However, state aid European legislation dictates there only can be 300,000 inside a three-year period. But the national limit that has been set was 7.5 million. Well, okay. Because you can see state aid rules changing. Oh, I certainly can. In fact, I certainly can. And that's alarm bells ringing straight away. So we set it at 7.5 million. Environmental consultancy grants, by the way. Yeah, consultancy grants. Environmental consultancy grants. Companies that may be engaged in environmental areas. Listen, that's a blurry line to define. Some people think nuclear power is environmentally friendly. I don't. So what constitutes a define? Some people think nuclear power is environmentally friendly. I don't. So what constitutes an undertaking that's engaged? You're conflating a lot of different things here. I'm simply saying, my concern, Minister, just to be clear, just to be clear. Nuclear power is specifically banned under the Planning Acts. How we can raise nuclear power when it's specifically banned in Ireland under the Planning Act? You're conflating many issues. I'm simply pointing out lines can be blurry. Boundary lines on what is environmental research or an undertaking engaged that meet the criteria, because that's the way it's phrased here, right? So it could meet the criteria for doing certain environmental work. But then it could also, that same undertaking, could be involved in military research and the production of military technology. So there's nothing to preclude. And everything, in fact, you're saying is you want Irish SMEs, as you call them, to be involved in this area. Like you're actively saying, you're saying is you want companies to be able to benefit from the expansion of this area. And indeed, I'd say it's highly likely after what you just said and the fact that we set a ceiling of seven and a half million that the state aid rules in Europe are going to change. In fact, have you any information to the effect that they're planning in Europe? Has there been any communication with the European Union about possibly increasing the state aid limits allowed per country by the European Union? Have you had any communication to that effect that that might be happening? No, I haven't. And bear in mind, this is under environmental aid again that you're referring to. I'm not aware of any changes. There has been a lot of changes through the European perspective on competitive funding and state aid rules over the last number of years, but I'm not aware of any future changes at this point in time. Okay, I mean you keep saying it's only environmental. Are you imply that this is only environmental? Although then you'd make references to the defence security and resilience area and the need for Irish companies. It's a different area. It's a different section of the Act. This is in relation to environmental aid, that we are trying to ensure that consultancy to help support firms in the sustainability transition, that they can get supported through consultancy grants, that helps them in the infrastructure and expenditure that they have heretofore. As I said quite clearly in relation to supporting firms in relation to the European Competitive Fund and Cybersecurity and Maritime Surveillance, that's separate through the ECF. Well, can I ask then, if that's the case, and we'll move on to Section 8 when we get to it, right, which is very explicitly to do with the DSR section, as you described in the second stage. Why then have you a problem with my amendments that simply say these grants should not go to companies that are involved in promoting military activity? If it's all about the environment and the environmental transition, why have you got a problem with my amendments? I don't understand. Because you're saying under no circumstances would these grants contribute to the military area. So what's the problem with the amendments? Because all I'm doing is saying, well, yeah, they will be confined to the things you say they're about and they won't be used to promote activity in the military area. So what's the problem? I'm coming forward with my legislation here. I'm strictly of the view that the enterprise agencies have a very significant need in bringing forward an environmental aid program that's not linked to job creation, one that is very solid in terms of trying to get assessments done quickly. It's nothing got to do with essentially defence. It's got to do with getting environmental aid support into companies, and this is our legislation. I'm absolutely opposing your amendments and all your amendments, making that quite clear. This is our objective, to ensure that we are supporting Irish SMEs to scale, to grow, but also meeting their ESG requirements, ensuring that we are taking seriously our reduction in carbon emissions, trying to get to that reduction by 2030, that 35%, which is very significant, and firms need that support to do just that. I'm confident, working with the state agencies, that their objectives are very clear in this regard, be it any support they give for both the digital and the environmental transition. I just want to proceed.