Pearse Doherty demands redress for Dunderrow abuse survivors

Deirdre Pearce, Fianna Fáil. Máire de Lleisgain Comhairle. Tame girí go n-leach ag an realtas leisior, Bhrig racht agus ar leid go dóraisead sícheann dúin ag dgirú ar ré. A thíosí, is éiseal na fáclea bann a bhféann de thód maré a gwaithnearú. Is marthar na rí dhéad a bhí mí usaidh graise ag weathas a a tharlu i scoil nesain do gwaithnearú, in charkís na seascatí agus na seacfidhí. A thíosí, an incháithaí tú díbh in níoch go n-leannaí tú an rudd ceart agus inch díbh feadh go goithaí tú cúiteoir fáil sa dói a tháith ceart agus gan ceilú moile. I want the government to take responsibility and to at least give us peace at the end of our time. I'm here suffering along with fellow victims who went to a school that was run by the state, and this was done to innocent children. It's totally wrong, totally unfair. I want justice. Taoiseach, those are the words of one of the Dundarro women. They're survivors of horrific sexual abuse inflicted on children by teacher Leo Hickey at Dundarro National School in Cork during the 60s and the 70s. These women have now broken their silence in their quest for justice and compensation over the state's failure to protect them. You will recall how Louise O'Keefe, one of Hickey's victims, spent years courageously battling for the state to take responsibility and to provide redress. In fact, you were the Minister for Education who fought Louise through the Irish courts back in 1998. She was forced to take her case all the way to the European Courts of Human Rights and she won that case in 2014. The court found that the state had an obligation to protect children from sexual abuse in state-run schools and to provide redress to survivors. Taoiseach, this judgment meant that the state had to pay out compensation to Louise O'Keefe. But the Irish courts found that it wasn't just Louise who was abused in that school. We're talking about women whose children were abused by the same person in the same school during the same period. But 12 and a half years on from the European Court of Human Rights judgment, these women are still waiting, still ignored, and still have to fight the state to own up to its responsibilities. These women are told that they can't access compensation because they haven't previously taken a legal case against the state. And seriously, Taoiseach, you're not going to do the right thing for these women who were abused because of some technicality? The state, true to form, wants to drag these women through the courts, wants to force them to take on expensive legal proceedings to get compensation, and we've seen this all before, and we know it's cruel. These are women who are now in their 60s and in their 70s, women who suffered appalling sexual abuse at the time, women whose children were catastrophically failed by the state, and it is shameful what is happening to them, Taoiseach. The women have suffered enough. They're being re-traumatised. They're being forced into a position where they must sue the state to get what they're entitled to by law, and that is wrong, and we all know that. Louise O'Keefe summed up the injustice perfectly when she said, I was abused by Leo Hickey in Dundaro School. The Dundaro women were also abused by Leo Hickey in Dundaro School. It is time to give these women the redress that is theirs. It is time to do what is right. So Taoiseach, I'm asking you today to bring this to an end. I'm asking you to tell them today that you will do what is right. I'm asking you to tell them that you will provide redress without any further delay. Well, first of all, the abuse carried out by Leo Hickey was evil, horrific, and deeply harmful to many, many people who were children at the time that he was in Dundaro National School in the 1960s. And I do appreciate, I'm fully conscious of the enormous trauma experienced by the survivors of sexual abuse in that school and abuse carried out by Leo Hickey. And it is important that our voices are heard and that our voices are listened to. And the European Court in 2014 found that in respect of day schools, the state failed in its obligation in specific circumstances to protect Louise O'Keefe from sexual abuse by Leo Hickey. Not the Irish courts, but it was the European Court of Human Rights. And the key issue was the absence of any safeguarding, advice, children's first guidelines, and all of that was not in place at the time or that was not advised to what was a diocesan school at the time. And that was the key underlying reason for the decision of the European Court of Human Rights. And then, since then, a number of measures have been put in place to implement the judgment, including an excrasia payment scheme. Now, that said, in 2015, then the government established an excrasia scheme of payments for victims of abuse by teachers and other school employees that was designed to ensure implementation of the judgment. However, that scheme was not adequate at all. And it was reviewed in 2019 by an independent assessor, Justice Erlo O'Neill. Now, this involved some in Dundera, but others who were not in Dundera as well. I'd have to...just to make that point. And then the scope of the scheme was expanded following Erlo O'Neill's... Justice Erlo O'Neill's conclusions, a more straightforward process. And 193 applications were made to the revised excrasia scheme, and a total of 10.75 million has issued to about 128 approved applicants. And the scheme closed to applications in July of 2023. Now, meanwhile, as you know, the scoping inquiry into historical sexual abuse today in boarding schools more generally, run by religious orders published in 2024, recognised the significance of the issues for survivors, and they're expressed to wish that those running those schools where sexual abuse occurred should be held accountable financially. So an interdepartmental group was then established in the aftermath of the scoping report to work on each of the recommendations, particularly also in the context of redress. And the... So the interdepartmental group recognised that consideration of a redress payment scheme more generally has far-reaching implications, and they're doing further detailed work in respect of that. Now, the survivors of the abuse of Leo Hickey from Dundero, through their legal representatives, have sought mediation. And the... As I've said, legal advice is that we would enter into mediation, but we will enter into mediation in good faith, and we will engage constructively. And I said that earlier this morning. I'd like to thank the panel and all of the speakers, especially the one from Hickey, who was very kind and generous. And I'd like to say that the trauma of Leo Hickey is a force to be reckoned with. Thank you. Taysha, give us peace at the end of our day. We want justice. That's the plea from the survivors of the abuse at Dundero. And the question that they are asking is how long do they have to wait? This goes right back to 1998, when you were the minister at the time. That's nearly 30 years. It's 12½ years after the European courts made a judgment that the state was liable. And we're hearing words from ministers and from Taysha about mediation and about listening, where they're asking for peace at the end of the day, they're asking for justice. It's a very, very simple question. Because you know, just like Louise O'Keefe had to win her case and fight her battles in the European courts and compensation paid to her, you know that the Irish courts have made it very clear that other women were abused in that school by the same teacher at the same time. These women. So will you say the words today that yes, compensation will be paid to them, we hear you, we see you, and we are going to set this right? Just to put the record straight, back in 1999, the issue was industrial schools, and I would have opened up and created a commission in abuse into industrial schools. That happened in industrial schools. And that was the... I know you want to... But I just want to put that on the record. And that was the first time ever any Irish government established a commission of inquiry into abuse in schools. And that was in the context of industrial schools. I just want to make that point. And it was many years later when this particular case came to... ..in terms of the Irish courts, and then it went on to the European Court of Human Rights. That said, various ex gratia payment schemes were developed in respect of Dondera and others, who had, at that stage, were a party to the case at the European Court. And, as I said earlier, about 193 applications were made. 128 were approved under the ex gratia payment scheme. So we're going to enter into mediation at this stage, in good faith. We have a wider issue, which the interdepartmental group is examining, in terms of both redress and the implications of all of that for the state and for survivors, but also for religious orders, in terms of their culpability, and also accountability in respect of contributing... Deputy Holly Kearns. Thank you.