Cathy Bennett probes RTE reforms, Donnybrook sale and costs

You're all very welcome here today. So I'll just start off. So you have, you've said that you've made certain reforms within the, within RTE and the CNAG has been helping with them, is that correct? Well no, I wouldn't categorise it like that now. Well how do you feel, CNAG, that the reforms that were mandated or I suppose that were supposed to be undertook, how do you feel that they are progressing? I wouldn't be willing to venture an opinion until I've done some audit work. Okay, and how do you feel yourself? Mr. Backhurst, do you feel like you have got through the reforms, that you've made a lot of changes? We've made a huge amount of change. It's a very different organisation and it's very different for audiences hopefully in terms of the player and the news app and stuff and there'll be more of that to come but I, yeah, it's a massively different organisation but there's more changes to make and there's certainly been an enormous amount of change on the governance side and you just look at the number of Remco meetings or the way the board operates with the leadership team, the communication with staff, but it's work in progress, it's not complete and we're ambitious to make it a brilliant place to work but a brilliant place for audiences. So in relation to transparency then, how did you feel when Patrick O'Donovan the Minister approached you in relation to, he didn't feel that there was, I suppose, transparency in relation to the protests, the protests that were aired on RTE, was there a conversation with Patrick O'Donovan, the Minister? I didn't have a conversation with the Minister. And who had the conversation? I'm not sure, I'm not aware anyone in RTE. You said RTE had a conversation with Patrick O'Donovan? He may have had one in news or his advisers may have done that, it would be quite common, yeah. Okay, that would be quite common? Oh yeah, from all political parties, yeah. When I was head of news I speak to party leaders, party members all the time and didn't agree with them a lot of the time. So party members from political parties come to RTE and ask them what to air and what not to air? TDs, yeah, they'll venture an opinion and we should listen because sometimes they're right but I would say mostly they're not. And tell me then, do you think this coincides with the reduction in funding that you're not going to get funding after 2027? No, I don't think so. You don't feel hard done by or anything? Well look, future funding is going to be critically important to the future success of RTE and I would hope that people will consider that in the context it is, the importance of RTE and public service broadcasting, you know, to the country and whether that's news and current affairs or whether it's live events like the World Cup and so on which brings huge entertainment to people's lives, you know, we are dependent entirely, well, 60% on public funding. So if you're not going to get the public funding, you have a model I suppose, you have created some kind of business plan going forward, you said earlier on Adrian that you have a five-year plan that you're starting to work on, so what is the plan there in relation to selling property? Is there a plan in relation to selling property? Do you want me to talk about that actually, because I've been probably as much involved as Adrian, but you can talk about it if you want. You know, the plan on Donnybrook is that we, as I said, we'll shrink down to one end, we'll invest in what's called Stage 7, which is near Nutley Lane, and we, you know, once we've done that we will sell the rest of the land, now we need to find a way properly to finance that with a loan to do it, you know, but we looked at all different options, we could move off the land, but then we would not own our property anymore, we'd probably be renting and I don't think that's the right term solution for the national... And have you did a cost analysis of that? We've done cost analysis, still we're blue in the face, yeah. And how is that, what does it say? Renting or owning your own property would be more beneficial? Actually, you know, renting off-site versus having our own on-site would be relatively comparable, but in the end, if you own your own thing in 20 years, you still own it. Yeah, that's okay, and you have did that cost analysis, and have you brought that to the Minister's attention? It hasn't gone to the Board yet, so it will be, but we are actually going to brief officials soon about it. Okay, can you tell me about in the EU Audio, Media, Visual in 2018, you were fined, how much were you fined for that? For not implementing that, was it? Yes. That was a payment made by the department. Okay. Not by RTE. Oh, not by RTE, and was there, who had to pay that, the department? The department, it was paid from the vote, it was one of two cases last year, two departments, where I drew attention to a payment for late transposition of an act. And there was 4.3 million that they had to pay? 4.3 million in this case, yeah. And what would that act, what were we not doing right, or what were, was it to come from RTE, or come from? Yes, yes, Adam. Related to the transposition of the Audio, Visual, Media Services Directive, that included new provisions to regulate video sharing platform services, like TikTok or YouTube, so that was given effect in Irish law through the online safety and media regulation. So Ireland, we weren't, that wasn't done right? There was a delay in, yeah, both the legislation, but then also the legislation set up a new regulator, Comission na mBan, and they had to make an online safety code and another series of regulatory codes and media service codes, so it was only really closed off after the legislation was passed, the new body was established and the new body put in place the regulatory framework. Would that be a fine that we would incur every year if this is not? No, it's been closed now, with the, the case has been closed now. Where did the 4.3 million come out of, whose vote did that come out of? The department's vote. Vote 33. No other waste of taxpayers' money? Mm-hmm. Okay, and then in relation to the auditors, you changed auditors between 23 and 24, why? Because Deloitte's, well we had to go out to procurement, Deloitte's actually in the end did not apply, so we chose from the shortlist and appointed was us. And why did they not apply? I don't know, I think they'd done it for a few years, I think it's best practice anyway to change auditors after a number of years. Wasn't disagreement with RTE? No, we had a good relationship with them, they were very good auditors. Okay, and just in relation to all the staff that have been made redundant, is that correct from RTE? Was there ever an apology or anything given to those staff for, for what happened? Why, why were they all made redundant? Which ones, sorry? The staff that you've mentioned there earlier on. The ones who, the one who had taken redundancy? Yeah. It was voluntary redundancy, so they chose to leave the organisation. Okay, and then just in relation to staff, I'm just going to continue on in that. Fair City, what is the plans for Fair City? Well we're currently, we've done a very extensive feasibility study about the future of Fair City. We obviously, if we downsize the site, at some point we're gonna have to move it off-site, if we want to carry on doing it. So we've done an extensive piece of work on that, which is nearly finished, to look at the future of Fair City and what it would cost. And what is the future? Well I don't know, because we haven't decided yet. Okay. It's, look, what I would say is, because a lot of people work on it, it's an incredibly important program to RTE and... How many people work on it? How many people work on it? About 80 or so. What is the cost yearly? Do you know that? The cost is 14 million. 14 million? 14 million yearly. So it's a significant decision about whether we carry on, and if we carry on, where we do it. Okay. Okay, just in relation to, Grace mentioned earlier on that there's a voucher scheme and it would cost 2.1 million. What are those vouchers worth? That was the staff vouchers that we, every member of staff got a thousand euros. Why would every member of staff get a thousand euros? But it was part of the overall pay agreement with the unions, so it meant that by giving the staff a voucher, we another six months before we, to negotiate a pay deal, which we did for two years successfully, but it was part of the overall pay deal. So when we agreed the level of the pay deal, the voucher was taken into consideration. But also, I mean, I was quite in favor of it because it's a tax-efficient thing, which the state has enabled, but also if you give a thousand euros to each member of staff, it means the lower paid get proportionally more than the highly paid. There was only one member of staff who didn't get it. Okay, and just in relation to your staff, you've outlined their salaries and that in a chart. I'm just wondering, is that chart correctly now, the figures? You said so many people are on, I just, there was a few discrepancies I felt within that chart. For the staff members, there was a discrepancy in relation to two were on the incorrect pay band, was that correct? Sorry, which one are you talking about? On our presenters and leadership. So you had noted on pay bands there that there was, I think, G, Lee and D, Maloney, there were two in the incorrect band, is that correct? They were not in the incorrect band, I think they were in the top ten. Yes. And I think the fact was when we took the decision about Derek Mooney, putting him in the top ten, it would have affected their position, but it didn't affect their salary. Okay, and then in relation to contractors and employees, so all in contra, it's just, there was a huge variance in pay that goes to a contractor, it's 250k compared to anybody else, any of the other salaries. Does that incentivise, I suppose, people to be on contracts in preference to working for RTE? I think definitely, if I could take that, I think that grid there just shows you all the scales, so the salary scales, and that one refers to the personal contracts, which is a band ahead of, we have three manager scales and then personal contracts, so they're all employees in RTE, and then the contractor population is a different, there's no scales for the contractors. Okay. Okay, and then just in relation to, did you have media training today, just before you come in? No media training, you're just a natural. No, no, we had a couple of meetings, obviously, to brief us on the areas, with Vivian Flood, our public affairs person who's there, and also with Neil O'Gorman, who's head of communications, but no media training. And was there a cost for that? No. No cost? They work for RTE. Okay, but you have a lot of money spent on consultants, so within your... Yeah, not media ones. How much do you spend on consultants in 2024? I'll have it here on the sheet. Yeah, you've got it there? Yeah. We do spend a lot on consultants, and that's, you know, it's the right thing to do. I think you spent 2.244 million. Yeah, but it seems like a lot, but actually individually, you know, they'd be a very big job. God, it's a lot for anybody, I would think it is a lot. Believe me, I don't want to spend that much, but that includes all legal advice, it includes all financial advice, you know, we might bring in one of the big four companies to look at tax affairs or whatever, and each piece of that, each one of those pieces of work is not a significant amount of money. Okay. But it goes through procurement, so. Thank you. Thank you.