George Lawlor: Challenges Irish Hotels Federation JLC Veto

Thank you and thank you to Paul and Michael for your excellent contributions this morning. Thanks for coming before us. I come from the county of Wexford, same as my learned friend from North Wexford, but he's halfway close now as well, so we have to be cognizant of that. Wexford is obviously tourism, hugely important to the entire county of Wexford, with some of our fabulous towns and indeed beaches, and people tend to see Wexford as a destination holiday county, and the wonderful work of Visit Wexford in alliance with many of the hotels in the area. In recent times, we've had a lot of family-owned hotels in Wexford, family-owned hotels in Wexford, and indeed in recent times, a couple of major hotels have gone from franchise hotels to family-run hotels. White's of Wexford is now back in a family hand, as is the Newtown Park Hotel, formerly the Maldron and the Clayton was White's. And I know exactly when you referred to the hotel that had planning, it's a hotel in Wexford town, and it was the disgraceful actions on board Panola, and in fact it was subsequently overturned by the courts. But by the time that had gone through all that, I think the costs went from something like £25 million to £45 million, and made everything totally unviable. And it was really an awful period in terms of planning, because Wexford County Council had granted permission, and an individual took it to onboard Panola, and they dragged it out for a number of years and did so much damage in that context. Can I ask, one of the remits of this committee is the Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, and I appreciate your comments in relation, Michael, in relation to the two-way comms that you have with the department, and you spoke about the reputational recognition of the professions and the careers. Can I ask for your commentary on, and as you know we have the Joint Labour Committees, are something that indeed Richard Bruton set up, re-established. It was Richard Bruton actually who decided to reintroduce the JLC for the hotel sector over ten years ago, I think. Can I ask you to comment on the long-standing refusal of the Irish Hotels Federation, the refusal to cooperate in processing the appointment of an employer's representative to sit on a joint Labour Committee for the hotel sector, which effectively, as you know, as you're aware, vetoes any decision that can be made by a JLC. So I listened with interest, Michael, as you commented about the two-way communication. So it jars with me a little bit, you know, and I tried to introduce a bill into the Dáil, and it was rejected at second stage by the Minister and the government. Could I ask you to comment on this veto, which I believe is not conducive to good employer-employee relationships, given that there are areas within the hotel sector that are low pay and difficult conditions. I mean, it was Winston Churchill, believe it or not, in 1909, who introduced the Trades Board back then, and later to come the Joint Labour Committees. The notion that Winston Churchill would do something to benefit Irish workers, but the Fianna Fáil party, chairman, and the current government refused to do it. To get to a cigar, don't you know? In recent months. Could I ask you to comment on that effective veto and the impact that you see it has on the industry? That's a very good question. It's quite a difficult question. We are at liberty to take the seat or not take the seat, and the Federation has decided not to take a seat. There were many things... Could I ask you for what reason? I think there are many things we were never very happy about. The decisions never really went our way. The chair would cast the other way. Well, that's the lived experience. We would have had a lot of issues with NERA when they first came in, and they were harassing hoteliers around the country, far too much granular focus on things that were not relevant in the inspection process. There are 46 pieces of legislation that govern employment in hotels and right across the economy. We believe we are well legislated for. We have an inspectorate system. They're there to visit, and they do. And if there are deficiencies in the findings, it's our job to make sure that they are repaired. We are now... But could you not argue that at a JLC? Effectively, what you're doing is ignoring the process and vetoing it when we've seen in, say, the security sector and the child care sector that they've worked quite effectively. Yeah, but they have, in the running of a JLC, price-fixed those services. We're not open for price-fixing of services. We already have sufficient... But it's also about terms and conditions. In fact, in the security and cleaning one, it's about parity with competitors competing to clean offices that the price of the labour content is identical. Right, so you don't feel that that would be something that the hotel sector could work with, particularly in terms of the lower-paid people? Well, we don't need to. I think this idea that we're the low-paid sector, I think, is actually incorrect. We have data from over 50% of the total workforce through a particular provider that demonstrates only 20% of the total workforce are on minimum wage as such. And in many cases, they're on minimum wage because they are on lower-age cohorts, okay? First-time employees in the industry. The other 80% are on far higher. Well, could you not argue that point at a JLC? Well, I can do it here. Why would I need to go to a JLC? You're effectively vetoing a process that is established since 1909. We're using the levers that are available to us, and that means that if the veto is there by us not taking our chair, we're opting not to take our chair. However, there is legislation coming from Europe that will be transposed into Irish law around minimum wage legislation, and there are seven conditions within that, and there is a condition in there about the employee right to collective representation. And obviously, we will address all of that as it arrives into Irish law. But you don't see the perception alone that's been set up that you are effectively ignoring the process. Well, I know from the union side of the House, from the union and labour side of the House, yes, we are not going to sit, so we're exercising our veto. Okay. I think it's clear because we're not in the chair. Well, that's what the whole thing was set up for, so you have... Well, it was a different time. I think wages across the whole sector have moved on an awful lot. You know, I keep saying to people in a resort hotel there are nearly 46 occupations, okay? And salaries will range from minimum wage up to a quarter of a million euros if you're at the very top of the range. And we employ qualified electricians, qualified plumbers, qualified engineers right across the sector. Who have their own JLC sector. Not all of them do. Some of them do. Some of them do. Not that many are actually covered by JLC. So I think, you know, I think the world has moved on from JLCs, quite honestly, and I think the lack of unionisation hotels says something as well, that employees don't believe the need for it. So there's lots of reasons things have changed. We are more modern. Would you not agree that the notion being sent out if you're refusing to recognise JLCs, that workers within the hotel sector would see that the membership of a trade union has been, you know, frowned upon? No, it's not frowned upon. I ran a hotel where I had some staff members or unionised, some weren't. Those who weren't unionised got the exact same treatment as those who were. Hence, there's no need to be in the union. It's as simple as that. And I also think as well that JLCs at a time had a really valuable part to play. But as an industry and a profession, we have moved significantly forward. We have our Quality Employer Programme, which is run by the Irish Hotels Federation, that addresses areas around split shifts, for example, that were a common practice back then. They're no longer part or parcel of how work is provided. In fact, in completing a thesis that I did back in 2020, I looked at the relationship between workers and the hotel industry. And one of the big, big benefits of working in our industry was the actual effect that there was dynamic shifts within work. That's why I find it hard to understand the veto. I find it hard. And I appreciate the stand you're taking, but I find it hard to understand the veto. Because maybe the GLC needs to be revisited. And maybe that needs to change with respect. Well, thank you. If we don't talk about it, we'll never know. There you go. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks.