Michael Fitzmaurice on badger vaccination and cattle TB tests
Michael Fitzmaurice questioned officials about the effectiveness of badger vaccination and the reliability of cattle tuberculosis testing, arguing vaccinated animals are not being routinely tested and that blood tests produce false positives. He pressed for clear answers on testing protocols, feedlot regulations, stocking density and the limits of gamma interferon and UCD tests.
Michael Fitzmaurice asked how authorities can know badger vaccination is working when vaccinated badgers are not being routinely tested, calling the programme potentially a 'charade of a test' and contrasting it with English trials that he said showed vaccinated cattle later tested positive.
He raised concerns that blood tests and the gamma interferon test can produce false positives and still miss some infected or asymptomatic animals. He referred to a local farmer's account of UCD tests being used but still failing to detect certain animals, and was told there is no single test that will pick up every infected cow.
He challenged the rules allowing cattle movements to feedlots and asked about fencing and operator requirements. In response it was stated that feedlots have double fencing and that whole genome sequencing studies would suggest feedlots are not a factor in spread.
He asked whether paddocks with many cows together show more infection; he was told stocking rate can increase the potential for nose-to-nose transmission but that the question is complex and not subject to a simple yes-or-no answer.
The discussion was rapid and time-pressed, with Michael repeatedly seeking yes-or-no answers while noting the clock and being told the session had to move on. The exchange ended with an instruction to move to the next speaker.
Badger vaccination testing
Michael Fitzmaurice asked how authorities can know badger vaccination is working when vaccinated badgers are not being routinely tested, calling the programme potentially a 'charade of a test' and contrasting it with English trials that he said showed vaccinated cattle later tested positive.
Cattle testing and diagnostic limits
He raised concerns that blood tests and the gamma interferon test can produce false positives and still miss some infected or asymptomatic animals. He referred to a local farmer's account of UCD tests being used but still failing to detect certain animals, and was told there is no single test that will pick up every infected cow.
Feedlots and movement rules
He challenged the rules allowing cattle movements to feedlots and asked about fencing and operator requirements. In response it was stated that feedlots have double fencing and that whole genome sequencing studies would suggest feedlots are not a factor in spread.
Stocking density and transmission
He asked whether paddocks with many cows together show more infection; he was told stocking rate can increase the potential for nose-to-nose transmission but that the question is complex and not subject to a simple yes-or-no answer.
Time-pressured exchange
The discussion was rapid and time-pressed, with Michael repeatedly seeking yes-or-no answers while noting the clock and being told the session had to move on. The exchange ended with an instruction to move to the next speaker.
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Transcript
All right, first of all, thanks for coming in, lads. Right, you talked about vaccinating badgers. We talked about vaccinating cattle. We know that from English trials that vaccinating cattle hasn't worked, that they were shown positive when they were tested the second time. How do you know that they're working for badgers? Based on the science that... But forget about the science. When you test, when you've said that you test an animal, the vaccine for a bullock or a heifer, if we put it on to them, we cannot at the moment, English are going back again redoing it, we cannot know because they're showing up as if they have TB. We have said that we're not testing badgers. How do we know that this is working, that it's not a charade of a test? Well, we take out the positive ones. You mean the blood test on the badgers? Yeah, you have said that you're not testing the badgers that was vaccinated. Isn't that right? We're testing... We're testing badgers to be vaccinated. Yeah, but with the vaccinated badgers, you're saying you're not testing them? Um, not routinely, no. So how do you know it's working then? Based on the non-inferiority trial results... Yeah, but you're talking about science that someone else don't. You haven't done it on the ground. There are trials. So it's not... You're not testing the badger that was vaccinated already, yes or no? No, we're not, because... Right. You're talking about... The department is talking about at the moment that, um... Is it that if you're on movements of cattle that you'll be testing... That the next farmer that gets a bee, an animal, would have to test them again. Is that right or wrong? Is this going on at the forum? No. No. There's no problem about that, is there? No, I... No. Yes, I understand it when I... So if I buy a cow and she wasn't tested inside six months, am I not right and saying I have to test her again? So that's the current... That's the current situation has changed. That's an EU law requirement for certain categories of cows. All right. You're talking about, um, that at the moment, if, say, if a herd breaks down, that you can send them, if you're a big breakdown, if you want to get rid of cattle, you can send them to feedlots or whatever. Is that right? That's the current situation, I agree. So a feedlot, in my understanding, isn't a shed always. A feedlot is where there has to be double fints on either side. What's the top of the bed? You're roaming in there to them and roaming out. There isn't, but I think, um... But there's more stipulation on an ordinary farmer than there is on a feedlot. Am I right or wrong now? No, there is a stip... There are additional requirements on feedlots. Yeah, there is a fence each side. It has to be a fence each side. That's the stipulation. For cattle. Spread for cattle. And we're asking them also to fence offsets to... But you're asking a farmer to fence offsets. The feedlot operator, yes. And the farmer as well as asked. Yes. But how come that there's... This thing I can't get in, everyone thinks a feedlot is a shed. It's not. They blend as well with double fence on each side. And that's the regulations. And they do that. I'm not saying one word to them. But the badger cannot be stopped travelling there and travelling somewhere else. But you're saying infected cattle can go there, but not anywhere else. Well, they're not necessarily infected. They're cattle that can come from... They've passed the tuberculin test. They have a high... They've passed the tuberculin test. And our whole genome sequencing studies would suggest that feedlots are not a factor. Right. This clock has gone arsed with all together because I was on four minutes away to go. And now I'm at 58 seconds. Time's right. Time's right. Yeah, but no, no, no. Fear is fair. Right. In the line of proposals, in your opinion, and I've heard it from a few, are you saying that, you know, the paddocks where there's a lot of cows in together, is that showing up more infection? Just yes or no? Oh, just... That... Jesus, my time, my clock, Lake. Well, that's an impossible question. Two minutes out. That's an impossible answer. You can't answer that. Well, stocking rate is a factor, but... Paddocks... We're hearing it from different departments, officials, that where there's a lot of cattle together, they're breeding. Yeah, well, where stocking density is, there's more potential for... For nose-to-nose transmission. Just to know. That's all we want to know. There's another thing, and farmers are getting very sick of this. There's a breakdown in an area. You'll hear that there's a severe interpretation and less severe interpretation. Either we put the gear into them, and it shows that they're gone down or they're not gone down. And why, then, is there so much false positives on this blood test? And why, also, are we not? My understanding is there is asymptomatic cattle that never show up, but there's a UCD test. Why aren't we using that fairly rapid to try and nail down if there's one within in the herd that's given it, infecting the herd, would not show up? It's not that simple to identify those animals. There is no UCD test that's going to be... Is there not? Well, a farmer near me, someone came out from UCD and said to them that they were from UCD and they're doing this test. The test, the test, the test, there are still animals that the gamma interferon test does not pick up. There's some of these allergic animals that the gamma interferon test does not pick up. And it definitely enhances the chances of detecting them, but there's no guarantee that that test will pick them all up. Is it true to say that the blood is doing a lot of false positives? Deputy, I need to move on to Deputy News.