Paul Murphy criticises plan to expand junior ministers to 23

Thanks very much. First of all I'll just say I'm disappointed that myself and Deputy Gibney's amendments were ruled out of order. I understand the reason given was because they weren't in line with the spirit of the bill. Deputy Gibney's amendment sought to have the maximum number of junior ministers at 20, I sought to have it at 15. It seems to me that this is a bill changing the number of junior ministers. I wonder if we change it to 20 to 24, would it have been in order? Are you only allowed to increase the number of junior ministers? You're not allowed to decrease them. So perhaps we can discuss that somewhere. Just ask the minister, are you not embarrassed to have your first act in this government, in this Dáil, to be such a stroke? To be so blatant in sharing out the spoils of political office? Are you not embarrassed to have to trot out the line that, oh, it's really about the size of the population, we need more people and so on? I mean, does it not cause you to cringe a little bit, even inside, that you need to so blatantly, you know, make what almost, not a whole lot off one in two government TDs to make them ministers of one source or another? Do you not see that it's very, very blatant, it's very, very obvious to people what is happening here? Second, I just ask you, because what has been mentioned, it's not continued in this bill, but it's been reported that in relation to the junior ministers, the law is going to be changed to enable them to continue to receive the travel and accommodation allowance, which is received by TDs who are not ministers. For some, that would be worth upwards of 35,000 euros a year. How are you going to do that and when are you going to do it? Is it through ministerial order or is it through primary legislation? Again, just to ask you, how can that possibly be justified? Is 176,000 euros for being a junior minister, four times the average earnings, is that not enough for a junior minister? I will leave it there, hopefully I will come in on the other sections. Thank you Deputy, and the question is that section one stands part of the bill. Oh sorry, excuse me, sorry, it's a long day. Thank you, thank you Cancorla. And just to come back on some of the points that have been raised, firstly relating to the section itself, it's obviously being opposed and the purpose as I've said previously of the bill is to allow for the appointment of 23 ministers of state. The importance of ministers of state is not something new. It was already acknowledged in 1924 with the Ministers and Secretaries Act, which were first provided for the appointment by the Executive Council of a maximum of seven parliamentary secretaries to act as junior ministers. The number of ministers of state has been progressively increasing due to the expansion of government business, allowing ministers to delegate to their ministers of state some of their powers and duties. Today, the major consideration for seeking to propose change to 23, as was in the case for previous changes in legislation, is the increased volume of government priorities and areas of responsibility. The expansion in ministerial duties, specifically to these three ministries, arises from the complexity across a number of policy issues, the challenges associated with managing extensive government initiatives and the enhanced engagements with stakeholders at all levels, both domestically and internationally. People have reflected on the increased population and some of the contributions. That is the case. The population has grown from 4.4 million people in 2007 to 5.4 million as estimated at the end of 2024. Also, when you take the need in the context of Minister of State with the special responsibility for migration, we want to have a coherent and strategic approach to that, with the increasing number of people coming to live and work in Ireland over the past many years, which is a welcome consequence of the growth of our economy, the job opportunities. Nevertheless, this growth requires an increased focus on delivery of public services and ensuring that we develop a cross-governmental approach to this matter. Many of the emerging challenges we face are interdisciplinary and necessitate cross-departmental responsibilities. New ministerial responsibilities will be delegated to ensure that there is an appropriate focus across all priorities and it is not possible to compare exactly government structures. Some people in previous contributions mentioned other countries. We can see that in Finland, for example, a country with similar population to Ireland, there are 19 ministers, each assisted by a Secretary of State, which is a role broadly equivalent to a Minister of State, while in Ireland, as we know, there are 15 ministers. In other jurisdictions similar in size, New Zealand and Norway, I am told that there are 20 ministers and Ministers of State, but this figure changes depending on decisions of the government of the day. I have already mentioned the main areas where the government will be focusing its attention and where the assistance and support provided by a Minister of State will be essential to achieve these specific responsibilities. The Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, with special responsibility for fisheries and the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications, with special responsibility for marine. The Minister of State will provide much-needed support to these departments and the Taoiseach to focus on the next number of years, for example, across a number of areas and supporting many people across the agriculture community. We also appoint a Minister of State for Migration, as is already flagged by the Taoiseach. The Department of Justice is being significantly reformed to make sure that its focus reflects the programme for government. That will involve the creation of a new division with responsibility for the management of migration and also coordination of integration. Finally, the Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education will play a clear role around securing the financial foundations and supporting many of the government initiatives in the context of science and research. Deputy O'Snodig, I think you referenced the constitutional framework that we have. I am aware that there are two ongoing legal actions in the High Court taken by some members of the Opposition relating to the attendance of Ministers of State at Cabinet meetings. This constrains what I might say. However, it is also important to reflect that the Government has always worked within the boundaries of the Constitution and this is being defended rigorously by the Attorney General on behalf of the Government. The Constitution is clear around what constitutes the Government, between 7 and 15 people who must be members of the Opposition and who are appointed by the President. Ministers of State are appointed in accordance with the provisions of the Ministers and Secretary Act. It has been a practice for many years that the Minister of State may attend the respective meetings regularly. It is in keeping with the Constitution and the procedures of Government. And as I have said, it is being defended by the Attorney General and by the Government in court. And obviously the courts will rule on that specific matter. Other deputies referenced the amendments that are out of order. And as you all know, many of you who are in the House many years that the Government has no role in what amendments are in order and out of order. And I am happy to, you know, I would be happy to debate any amendment. I think Deputy Mayor Snoddy, when we are doing the Official Languages Act, it is probably one of the exceptional cases where in fact we, through your chairpersonship, we debated all the respective amendments. I think which was a unique instance. But look, it is not the role of Government to decide or dictate which amendments are ruled in or out of order. And I respect your role in submitting amendments and your respective opposition to this Bill. Deputy Murphy, to your question, obviously the matter you raise is not a matter for this legislation. That will be a matter for further discussion within Government. And obviously if a proposal is brought forward, that will be made public at that time. But it is not a matter of this legislation before us today. Thank you. Thank you.