Paul Murphy challenges minister over LNG: 'dirtier than coal'

Minister, are you aware that the emissions impact of imported LNG is worse than even coal? It is the dirtiest fossil fuel. Despite that, the Taoiseach says that we will, quote, have to have an LNG facility of some kind. Will you be going along with the Taoiseach? Will that be a so-called state-led project, as the last government was in favour of, or a commercial LNG? Can you update us on the progress of the memo that your department is meant to be bringing? As outlined in the programme for government, the governments are committed to taking decisive action to radically reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and to achieve a 51% reduction in emissions from 2018 to 2030, and to achieving net zero emissions no later than 2050. In the programme for government, we also set out commitments to achieving 80% of Ireland's electricity generation from renewable sources by 2030, and to take all necessary action to ensure and protect Ireland's energy security. It is through delivering on this commitment that we will deliver a secure and sustainable energy future. The commitment to secure an energy future builds upon the energy security in Ireland to 2030 report that was approved by the previous government and was published in November of 2023. Specifically in relation to natural gas, this report concluded that Ireland does not have adequate resilience in case of a major disruption to our subsea gas import pipelines and does not currently meet minimum EU standards in this area. I agree with their analysis on that. We are in quite a precarious situation with regard to that. It is in this context only that a state-led strategic gas emergency reserve in the form of floating storage and regasification unit was recommended in the report in the context of ensuring energy stability and security. A state-led strategic gas emergency reserve operating on a non-commercial basis for use only in the event of emergency would provide resilience to the gas system and mitigate against major consequences for our society and for our economy that would arise from significant gas disruption in Ireland. In parallel, my department are developing the appropriate policy and legislative measures to ensure that a strategic reserve provides the resilience to our system that we need. Thanks. I know the Minister simply ignored the actual question and that is obviously a prepared answer. You have a prepared question. I could go again. Are you aware that the emissions impact of imported LNG is worse than that of coal? This is research from last October by an environmental scientist called Robert Haworth. I will give you some of the lowlights. LNG is 33% worse in terms of planet heating emissions over a 20-year period compared to coal. Drilling, moving, cooling and shipping gas from one country to another uses so much energy that the actual final burning of gas in people's homes and businesses only accounts for about a third of the total emissions from this process. The large resulting emissions mean, quote, there is no need for LNG as an interim energy source, and the paper adds that, quote, ending the use of LNG should be a global priority. And yet the government is going in the opposite direction. So lip service to targets that the last government wasn't going to meet, you're going to miss by an even greater margin, unfortunately, than they were on track to miss them by. And it seems that this is driven by the Healy Rays on the one hand, and Donald Trump on the other. Right. I don't know where to start with that. Look, there is a reality, and you've dismissed the report that was done and the research that was done in relation to energy security full stop. But what would this country do if there was an unforeseen event that disrupted our gas supplies whilst we're transitioning away from fossil? And we've done that very successfully. And I commend actually the previous minister for the work he did in that area. And I know that you were consistently critical of the work that he carried out and his department carried out. But there is a reality here that if there was a disruption to our gas supply, that Ireland does not have a strategic reserve. What would that mean for society? What would that mean for our hospitals? What would that mean for our businesses, for our homes? And it is in that instance, looking at the risks that are there, that we do need to move towards a strategic gas reserve, absolutely unquestionably. Now, in relation to specifically your contention that emissions of imported LNG relatives out of coal, that coal is worse. That depends on a number of factors, such as the time frame in question, the supply chains associated with both coal and LNG, and the methods of transporting both fossil fuels. It's not my contention, Minister. I don't claim to be a climate scientist. It's the contention of those who have researched the matter. But perhaps you're going to ignore the science on it. The answer in terms of energy security and resilience is one, stop expanding data centres. You are putting our energy usage on an accelerating upwards track, they're going to be at 30% by 2030, and you're basically telling them burn, baby burn, let it rip, go up even higher. That on the one hand, to try and reduce energy usage where necessary, rather than expanding it. Secondly, batteries. Thirdly, interconnection. But to ask the question explicitly, was there a secret deal with the Healy Rays to give a wink and a nod to the Fortress Energy commercial LNG terminal in Tarbert in Kerry? That's what the Sunday Business Post is reporting, saying that the line you quote in the programme for government in reality was to get Healy Rays support for it. Is it about appeasing Donald Trump, where Neil Martin said Europe will have to buy more liquefied natural gas from the US to appease tariff threats from Trump? That's his words, not mine. Are we going to trade away our climate, our children's future, our energy prices, to placate Trump's bully boy tactics in order that the US fossil fuel giants can drill baby drill? Ask both of your questions. Firstly, there's no secret deal done at all. I've mentioned to you and you've ignored it. You've ignored it completely. What would Ireland do right now, next week, the week after, next year, if there was a disruption to our gas supply, which gas is in our system right now, and we're reducing our reliance on it. So what would we do? We just have no strategic reserve of gas. We don't run our hospitals for a period of time. It is a very serious proposition. And if we have no energy, if we have no energy and a major disruption to our gas supply, we need to have a reserve in place. Now, this did not come about by any type of deal that you contend. It's about actually ensuring that we have the adequate support in place should there be a disruption to our gas supply whilst we're expanding the renewables that are there, increasing our interconnection, as you know, that we're doing as well. Also, and it's about the security and stability of our energy system for our people. Nothing more, nothing less.