Shay Brennan urges Ireland to halt sale of Israeli bonds

Thank you to our guests and witnesses here today. I appreciate you taking the time to join us and I appreciate the detailed thought that's coming to your opening statements. I just want to say up front I'm absolutely horrified by the Israeli atrocities being carried out on the Palestinian people and I want Ireland to do everything within its influence to bring about a cessation of these actions without delay. Now I'll say up front again having read your opening statements that although we may agree on the end goal we may not find ourselves fully aligned on the necessary immediate actions that Ireland should take. So I have a very short series of questions just three or four and I might just ask the question get a response and then ask the follow-up question if that's okay with the panel. Firstly Helen you state that Ireland has the capacity to significantly diminish Israel's ability to fundraise and do you want to say then that we have the ability to cut off 23% of funds generated by Israeli bonds. Do you agree or not agree that the reality is that Israel would simply just move to another EU home state almost immediately and that the actual impact of our actions there vis-a-vis Israeli bonds would result only in a minor inconvenience to Israel? Should I answer directly? Yeah I mean I think the key issue is that Ireland should not be funding Israeli bonds and it should not be enabling them to be sold right I think that is the the moral and the legal issue for Ireland. As to whether another country would take it up that's like saying if you know that if I don't kill somebody somebody else will kill them and you know it's really a faulty argument I think. Ireland has a responsibility to end the sale of bonds. I think it's also very possible that if we end the sale of Israel bonds end our facilitation of the sale of Israel bonds on the grounds that to continue doing it is to commit a crime to is against international law and the genocide convention that would be virtually impossible for another country within the EU to take it up. That's my own opinion but the key thing for Ireland is we cannot remain complicit in genocide and illegal supporting illegal situations. Ireland has to end the sale of Israel bonds under the authority of the central bank. Okay thanks Helen. I just maybe just one correction there you said at the outset we were funding Israeli bonds we're clearly not funding them we are well the central bank is is reviewing prospectuses. Just to clarify on that the central the Israel bonds could not be sold in Europe without the authorization of the central bank of Ireland so it's worse than selling them it's actually giving a license for their sale throughout Europe with no limit on the amount of money that can be raised. I fully agree that they can't be sold without the certification however you know I would like to be on record that we're not actually funding them but I take everything else you said there. So just moving on to the the central bank you do make reference to the finance minister's ability to advise the central bank. Now do you agree that the minister has absolutely no power or right under Irish or EU law to instruct the central bank to act in any way and further do you appreciate the principle and necessity of monetary policy independence and the consequences for breaching this? Is that to a particular guest or the panel? Well I'm taking it from Helen's statement so I think maybe Helen might be most appropriate to address that. I accept that the central bank has independence in terms of monetary policy. I don't accept and I don't think anybody could that an organ of the state can be complicit in genocide and that can be allowed to continue. So the state has a responsibility to deal with that issue. I think maybe Mooney or you might like to comment on that. At the end of the day Ireland as I mentioned in my statement is an independent state with full responsibility for the actions of any of its organs including the central bank. Based on this and this is exactly why I wrote the statement and said it in that way it seems to be that there is a gap in the legal system that needs to be fixed. The fact that the central bank says well my code of conduct has a number of boxes that don't include the genocide convention as well as other crimes means that there is a problem with the due diligence that is expected from the central bank and this is exactly the problem that I think you know the Parliament can fix. Of course it is understandable that the central bank is independent in the same way that it's understandable that the judiciary are independent as well as any other you know any other Commission within the state that has independence in its functions. It's very important to keep that independence. Nonetheless if this independence does not also involve a code of conduct and a certain due diligence code that makes sure that for example in our case in the central bank is not selling bonds for that will be used for not selling sorry is not authorizing the sale of bonds that are used for war crimes crimes against humanity genocide human trafficking drug trafficking any other crimes not only by the way these types of crimes then there is a problem in the legal system that does not put these questions within the check boxes that need to be examined by the central bank so we're you know I don't think that the suggestion is to intervene in the financial work of the central bank but to intervene in the boxes that the central bank needs to check because at the end of the day anything that the central bank does reflects on Ireland who is getting going to be held liable which state is going to be held liable it's Ireland and of course individuals can also be hand held criminally responsible for their contribution if you authorize knowingly this is this can also lead to to an individual's criminal responsibility according to Irish law but also international law thanks Muneer could I just ask you what do you then see the consequences of breaching EU prospectus regulations as being because that's as you described there the the boxes being ticked are not prescribed by the Irish government they're prescribed by the EU under the EU prospectus regulations I am NOT an Irish politician but I am my area of expertise is international law and in international law international law obligations of international law are not equal there is a hierarchy and even if you are part of different international organizations including your membership in the EU or the UN or any other regional or or other organizations you might have obligations that sometimes you either have to breach in order to keep a higher obligation so it's like the Constitution and the other laws within an internal legal system if if there is contradiction between law and Constitution Constitution is higher in the same way pre-emptory norms of international law prevention of genocide war crimes crimes against humanity are higher than any other obligations and whenever they are whenever there is a contradiction you always prioritize the higher over the lower in terms of your obligations but you know having said that I'm not a you know a politician I I still would would would would argue that it is very important to also explain to the European Union that this is why we are restricting this state's bonds because of because of its because of the way the money is being used you know Europe is a is a you know the European Union Union has peaceful ways of conflict resolution maybe they can go to court against Ireland and then Ireland can say well we had to compare our legal obligations and we had to prioritize and you will win in Ireland and in the you know in in in the European a course legal system because at the end of the day the argument of why you are not doing that it's not just because you decided to do it it's because there are international court of justice decisions and advisory opinions and other rules and this is what Ireland believes Ireland does believe and understand that Israel is committing war crimes crimes against humanity and genocide so it's only consistent with the Irish policy and even if there is a small conflict at the end of the day it can be resolved through negotiations through courts I'm sure that this can be resolved but yes yeah thank you I appreciate you're not an Irish politician and you appreciate I'm not an international legal expert which is why I'm questioning you good self but whereas you might look at these situations purely through a legal lens I am looking at it also from the real politic of the situation and hence my next question how much value do you place in Ireland's role within the EU in relation to advocacy towards fellow member states on Palestine's behalf and would the panel agree that building of that advocacy within the EU is the most appropriate way for Ireland to proceed and do you see any specific unilateral actions such as actions being put forward here on behalf of the central bank that might be taken by Ireland's as jeopardizing our influence within the EU at this particularly critical time and if you could be relatively succinct and if you could be relatively succinct thank you I think the key issue is that the Central Bank of Ireland is currently committing a crime they are helping to fund genocide so that's the starting point the starting point has to stop is to stop the harm that has been done and it is urgent I mean I think I'm sure everybody read today in the Irish Times 51 people in Palestine were murdered as they queued for food right that's the reality they were shot and and subject to Israeli tank fire right and that is funded by Israel bonds so the funding has to stop in terms of the EU there are a couple of things what one of them that is really important is that um okay one of them that's really important is that within the terms of the EU prospectus itself it is perfectly reasonable to end the sale of Israel bonds and this has been made at your own committee many times by members of the committee but it's certainly the case the central bank is wrong in what it's saying in our opinion certainly there's an argument to be discussed there