Michael Fitzmaurice Demands Clarity on Food Traceability and Labels

You might answer fairly quick because we're going to be spending for five minutes. You're talking to my team. I am. First of all, to FSAI, how many people have you out on the ground checking labelling? Quick, quick, quick. Well, we've known specifically it's all done through the HSE. How many have they out? How many of the HSE health inspectors? Yeah, so there's about 300, 350 mental health officers who cover a range of activities, including food safety. How many is dealing with labelling? EHOs cover a wide variety. Food safety is part of their work. Needling a haystack, to be quite frank about it. In the line of Board PIA, can I have a Board PIA emblem on my product, even if my stuff isn't orange and green? Can you have a, so the orange and green, Board PIA quality assured. Can I have a Board PIA emblem on my product if it's not orange and green? Yes or no? Well, it's not, can I answer the question please? Well, it is simple because I saw it on it. The Board PIA quality assured, the Board PIA quality assured logo is only on a product, as I said, that is born, raised and slaughtered in the Republic of Ireland. Can I have a Board PIA logo on the product if it's not orange and green? So, I'm not understanding, so orange and green doesn't go on a pack. Yeah. And a Board PIA quality assurance logo goes on a pack, and it can only go on a pack if it's born, raised and slaughtered in the Republic of Ireland. And no other thing brought in from any country can have any emblem of Board PIA on it? No. Nothing. Absolutely not. That's fair. To the Department, under the traces system, you maintain records of all products of animal origin imported from third countries on CHEDP documentation. These records, the third country supplier, the importer, and the first consignee, where the product is going when it arrives in Ireland. My question is, does part three of CHEDP record indicate where a consignment goes after that in the food chain? Sorry, Deputy, I wasn't able to hear the question you asked the last piece of it. Sorry. My question is, basically, you're used to the traces system, and I'm wasting time at this now, and you maintain all records of products of animal origin imported from third countries on CHEDP documentation. Right or wrong? Is that right? Right. These records, I know that these records, it records the third country, the importer, and the first consignee, where the product is going when it arrives in Ireland. My question is, does part three of CHEDP record indicate where a consignment goes after that into the food chain? Simple question. No, it's the first consignee. And nothing after that? Well, thereafter, it still has to have the traceability requirements of all... But there's no records of it, is there? Well, we have a record of where it's come from, and that it's met our SBS requirements. Okay, right. Okay. So we have no record after that, you're saying. In relation to, you've talked about border security. What border security is between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland in traceability? So each food business operator is required to maintain traceability. One step back and one step forward. I'm talking to the department. I've talked about... The same rules apply. ...border security. I am asking, if a lorry comes in through the north, what border security is there to check the consignments? It's entered into the common market, so it's free movement. It's what? It's entered into the common market, so there's free movement. If it comes from a third country? No, if it's entered into the third country, it has to come in through a border control post. Yeah, and it comes in through Northern Ireland. Is Northern Ireland an EU country, if it came from the UK? So, yeah. All right, a single mark. So, it has to come in through a border control post, if it's come in from a third country? It comes in through the north. Yeah. Where's the border control between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland? It's allowed to freely move once it's passed through the Northern Ireland border control post. They're dealing with the English stuff. Of imports processed under Ched Peay, this is for the department, how many were subject to physical checks or border controls last year? Last year, the physical checks, that varies by country. It's prescribed in legislation. No, I'm asking in Ireland, how many? Product. How many? So, it'll vary. For example, meat would be inspected at a physical check rate at about 30% for mincemeat, 15% for other meat. It might be higher then, depending on the country of origin. Okay. And under that documentation of meat brought, of, we'll say, beef brought in from a third country, in relation to the beef that has turned up with the hormones, has the public the right, no more than, my name is up in a super value, or one of the guys here, if our animals are killed in Ireland, that our name is up in some super value, or some butcher shop, or whatever. Have we the right to see all that documentation of where that meat, that had hormones in it? Are you able to give us that information? Yeah, sorry, question. Quick. So, that information is subject to official controls? But hold on, hold on. Can I get it as a citizen? So, you can request, under freedom of information, you can make a freedom of information request, but that information that you speak of is subject to confidentiality requirements? Why is it subject to confidentiality? If Michael, or Paul, or anyone who is here, have an animal, and our name is up in a shop, and whoever sent in that beef or brought it in, is subject to confidentiality, is it two different stories for two different people? If we have to be traceable in every bit of our meat, why isn't that, that Joe Bloggs, or anyone that wants to know, why isn't that information given out? Shouldn't we know the person that brought that in? Shouldn't we know who distributed it? And I've heard earlier on that once it was gone, it's ate by someone, probably. Does that person know? Have they been contacted? But if it was my bullock, or my heifer, I'd be contacted if there was something wrong. So, where is the two different standards going on? So, maybe it would be helpful to outline the timeline here, so the meat... I don't care about timelines, I'm asking traceability. Yeah, so the timeline is helpful here. The meat came into the Netherlands in... Someone brought it in. Yes, that's certainly true. You know who brought it in, do you? That's certainly true, it came in... So, should we not know that as people? It came into three food business operators in Ireland in September, early in September. We know all that. By the time we were informed of it on the 12th of December, and cheques were undertaken in those premises, the meat had already been sold on, there was none left. So, I'll ask you a question. And it was out of date. I'll ask you a question. Has someone eaten that meat? Yes or no? In all likelihood, someone has, yes. And did you go to them people, or trace them to see, would you know who'd done it? Should they be eating such meat, yes or no? Sorry, the food business is concerned for retailers. They don't have to maintain traceability to the final consumer. Jesus Christ. So, you were saying to me that every farmer in Ireland, their name is up in a shop or whatever, wherever, or a butcher shop, and rightly so. We've no problem with it. But if someone brings in beef, we don't know who brought it in, who distributes it, if we ask the question. So, the business knows who they know one step back, who they got it from? Get clear on this. The consumer don't have the right to know. If they have the right to know about my animal, haven't they the right to know about the bullock that came from Brazil? So, there's legislation in place to allow consumers to be informed in the choices that they make. So, am I, as a consumer, allowed to know, was there any risk that I ate that beef, if I asked the question, who brought it in? Am I right to know the track right along, no more than I'm allowed, if it's an Irish company or an Irish meat processor? Yes or no? So, I think if you were a consumer in a retail premises purchasing meat, you are entitled to the information of who produced the food businesses and the traceability of that meat, whether it was... As an Irish consumer, there would be concern, if you don't know who ate the meat, if I had a worry, can I ask you the question, sing you in a question, can you tell me where this meat, who brought it in, where it went to, and what shop it was in? In case I went into that shop and I drive in 100 or 200 miles every day, can you tell me that? We're precluded from giving that particular... But if it's Michael below in the west of Ireland, or someone in the east of Ireland, we have to come out and save it. I think the same rule would apply. No, it doesn't, because your name is up on the shelf. I didn't see any Brazilian guy's name up on a shelf in any super value or any shop around Ireland, even though there's plenty of beef coming in. Did you? I think there's an equivalency in terms of when you're buying the meat, if you're entitled to the information of where that meat came from, whether it's Brazilian or Irish. When something, if there's a... Just to be clear on this, we have a right to know what we're eating. If I'm producing an animal here, a farmer has to go through every hoot. And what we have said now, we brought in beef through the labelling system, through the traceability system, and none of us have a right to know. We're due to suspend for a break, and there's a vote on as well. I have to keep going. If you're the... No, no, we're due to... You're going to give me a minute again, because... No, we're due to suspend after Deputy Fitzmaurice, so we're going to suspension for five minutes. We're going now for five minutes. Between everything, I've been held up two or three minutes. Yeah, but you can start back again. Try two minutes left, like, would they have... No, we're suspended for five minutes. The question is... Thank you very much.