Paul Murphy: NTA data shows go-ahead worse than Dublin Bus

Thanks a lot. Thanks for the coming here and presentation. I also want to start on the issue of buses. One of the things that's interesting to me from the NTA figures, I mean, they confirm the anecdotal information that is coming to me that go-ahead is significantly worse than Dublin bus. So anecdotally, the buses that I hear the most about, apart from the F-spine, which is a new edition, but it's the S6, the S8, the W6, and the W2. That's where people are left waiting on bus stops, ghost buses. It's just, you know, there's an Instagram account called IHateTheS6, right? Things are that bad. But the national figures confirm that by every metric of reliability, punctuality, penalties incurred, go-ahead is worse than Dublin bus. Go-ahead incurred 22% of the fines for buses in Dublin in 2024, provides only 12% of the services in terms of passenger journeys, or 70% of vehicle kilometres. So I suppose the first question is, is that accurate? That, on average, go-ahead is worse, less reliable, less punctual, and so on than Dublin bus? No, not on a like-for-like basis. So what you need to understand is that there's two different types of contracts. So in the case of the go-ahead contract, deductions can be higher than they are in direct award contracts. So the commercial contracts, we have higher deductions and also incentive payments if you're doing well than in the case of direct award contracts. But the other thing to note in relation to go-ahead in Dublin in particular is, in recent, since the network redesign has been rolled out, they've taken on a significant number of orbital routes in Dublin, where congestion is quite severe, and therefore punctuality is much more difficult to achieve than where you have a radial route, with, in many cases, a bus corridor in place. So it can be a more difficult operating environment for go-ahead. But having said that, after the go-ahead contract was first introduced back in 2018 now, we did see a significant improvement in performance on routes which Dublin Bus had operated in the past when go-ahead took them over. So we believe that go-ahead, although there are undoubtedly challenges in relation to congestion and indeed driver availability from time to time, as there are with all operators, they're doing a good job. I mean, your own figures suggest that Dublin Bus is much more reliable than go-ahead and that Dublin Bus is more punctual than go-ahead. I mean, you're telling me there's different routes, but I'm assuming that the route targets take into account whether they're radial or... I mean, the issue for me is I don't see why it's fair that someone who... A commuter, their route happens to be run by go-ahead and it seems to me they get a worse service as a contract, as a consequence of that. Well, the service is a product of both the operator and the environment they're operating in. And as I said, you know, in the case of several new routes to go-ahead that have operated taken on as part of the network redesign, the operating environment isn't ideal, particularly towards the end of the year when traffic congestion is particularly bad, October, November, and the lead up to Christmas. So it's much more difficult to operate in an environment where there isn't plus priority than where there is. I mean, when I talk to bus drivers, I don't know bus drivers in both go-ahead and Dublin Bus, the point that they make to me when I ask, well, what's fundamentally the difference is that go-ahead has a harder time retaining staff because not so much that they offer poor wages, but that they offer poorer terms and conditions. They offer worse shifts for people, basically. So people get trained up by go-ahead, then they move to somewhere else. That that's fundamentally the reason. And, like, that's a consequence of the competitive tendering process that you have set up. It's not your political decision. But the base on which these people compete is only on, is on, well, OK, we're going to provide punctuality and so on, and in terms of what cost we're going to do it on. So I just don't see that this model of competitive tendering has delivered for people. Well, look, I mean, there are times when Dublin Bus have driver availability issues, and there are times when Dublin Bus have driver availability issues, and there are times when Bus are driver issues, and they, you know, Dublin Bus had significant issues in the summer with driver availability and dropped a lot of kilometres because there are driver shortages in the summer. And from time to time, the same thing happens to go-ahead. Does it happen more to go-ahead in Dublin Bus? Not really. Not over time. No, it doesn't. Can you, I'd be interested in seeing the figures on that. Just then relating to that, right, is the issue of the KPIs, so the key performance indicators. Again, what bus drivers say to me is that the KPIs set by the NTA effectively incentivise ghost buses. So you are penalised if you're more than a minute ahead of time or more than six minutes behind time. So bus drivers are under incentive to slow down if they're making good progress. So you might be slowing down in the first part of your route in order to make sure you're not ahead of time. Then you hit traffic, and all of a sudden you're more than six minutes behind, and you can't just get around the traffic, right? Unlike, you can slow down, but you can't necessarily speed up. And what happens then is that there's an incentive to effectively become a ghost bus, to not pick up anyone else, to effectively cancel, that you can cancel the service on the basis of traffic. Do you mean skip stops? No, cancel on the basis of traffic congestion. And that, under the way the KPIs are set up, there's effectively an incentive to do that. Do you...? No, well, if services are cut short or don't operate at all, obviously there's deductions in the contract. We see the data. So if a bus has not run the full length of its route, we'll see that there's a gap in the data versus the scheduled data, and we'll be able to deduct payments from the operator for the service not operated. So we have that transference. And are they punished more for late buses or for cancellations of buses? For a bus that does half its reach? I mean, in the case of the lost kilometres, canceling services, we just deducted the cost that it would have been to them to operate the service if it's within their control. But it's not in their control because it's traffic. That's what they're saying. Well, so, okay, there is a grey area and there's a lot of debate at times over... You know, we have a cost code that we allow operators to use for abnormal traffic congestion. Yes. And we do enter into discussions with operators on various occasions to what abnormal means. But we do look for some evidence that it is an unusual, out-of-the-ordinary, as opposed to something they could timetable for. So I... It could take a... But I think this is precisely what the bus drivers are telling me, is that, therefore, they are under an incentive from their company, be it a bus or a go-ahead, to say it's an abnormal traffic thing and to cancel it. And as a... And as a bus user, you prefer your bus to arrive 10 minutes late than not to arrive at all. And it's our job to pick those up and to query them with the operator. And they say that, as currently structured, that the KPIs are incentivising that. Just to move on to a different issue, which is the issue of taxi regulation. Do you... Do you think that the model of NTA taxi regulation, whereby a maximum fare is set after a process of consultation, look at the economic environment, look at what's affordable for people, what's decent for the drivers, is that being undermined by the app companies on two levels? On the one hand, the likes of Uber using these fixed fare models, which is undercutting the agreed fare and potentially making... Being a taxi driver a very unstable career and therefore potentially undermining our taxi industry in order to capture market share, in order to hike up prices later. Or secondly, the utilisation of these technology fees, which are nine euros in some cases, which as far as I understand, these sit outside of the maximum fare regulation. So an app company can be saying, well, we're completely abiding by the maximum fare, but we're just adding this extra nine euros, which can become 10 euros, which can become 15 euros, 20 euros. Do you think that our model of taxi fare regulation is being undermined and needs to be updated? So there is some work working with the department to look at the taxi regulations, particularly in terms of the dispatches as well, to see whether or not there needs to be additionality in how they're regulated as well. So that work is now underway to do that and that should help as well. On the technology charges, I think that will be incorporated in that review as well. And obviously, we're here to sort of regulate the taxi drivers, sorry, the taxi vehicles. The Garda does the taxi drivers to make sure... And ultimately, it is a commercial decision between the driver and whoever they're driving for to make sure that they're doing that as well. As has already been stated, I've only been here eight weeks or so. And taxi regulation, for me, what I can see already is some of the benefits of having a maximum fare imposed as well, which I haven't seen elsewhere before. That is really good for the consumer, the customer that is trying to use the taxi. And ultimately, our requirements really are to make sure that we've got taxi services that are available for people to use at the best price as well. But we are looking at reviewing those regulations. Would you consider the introduction of a not-for-profit app run by the NTA? I mean, these companies like Uber are making billions. I mean, it's huge money. For what? They've produced this algorithm, but all the work is being done by the taxi drivers. And in a sense, you know, like the taxi rank. Taxi rank updated to today is kind of a taxi app. Is this something that the NTA would consider? Well, I think we have to consider all options in terms of what's the best provision. Within the regulations that we're responsible for, remember, we don't cover all the regulations around taxi services as well. So we have to just look at all options as part of the work that we do to review the dispatches. Thanks a lot. Sorry. One just final question. Just to go back to the electric buses. So there's a question about a particular cohort of buses. Are they in use? Yes. But then you kind of qualified to clarify that you weren't necessarily saying that all the buses were in use. Are there any electric buses currently not in use sitting idle and how many are there? Yeah, we have an order in with a manufacturer to manufacture buses. That's Bamford Bus Company up in Northern Ireland known as Wright Bus. So I think there's about 130 buses coming through under that order which will then distribute across depots later this year. So they still have to come on stream. So they may become idle? No, I think later this year they will all be deployed is my expectation. And there's no buses, no electric buses currently idle in bus depots? Well some of those 130 buses have been manufactured but haven't taken them into the fleet yet. Okay. So they will come into the fleet later. And any of the ones that are in the fleet they're all in active use? All electric buses that are in the fleet? I don't I don't want to say every one of them they're single deck buses and they're not all in active use there's more but more will come into active use over the months ahead. They're all ready to go into active use put it like that. Could you get us the figure and maybe send it to us of how many electric buses that are currently in the fleet are not in active use? There's various estimates of people online who seem to know these things who think there's a lot of electric buses not in use. We'll get the correct figure. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot.