Paul Murphy: Questions 500 Sleeping Rough Despite 4,000 Empty Beds

Just to start, to get a kind of broad overview, could you tell me the numbers of the capacity in the system for Ukrainian refugees and international protection applicants, separating out A or P, everything apart from that, what's the total capacity in the system? Sure, I'll ask Conor to come in on that, if that's okay. So we have 20,000 in state contracted accommodation that comprises also the rapid bills as well, so 20,000 there, excluding the ARP, which is 42,000, so that's where we're at with Ukrainian accommodation at the moment. And international protection? 33,000, yeah. On top of that capacity? Yes. So it's 53,000 capacity total, and how many people are in there currently? There's 33,000-ish in IPAS. Sorry, am I saying that wrong? Yeah, there's 33,000 people residing in international protection accommodation at the moment. There's a further 2,500 available beds, so we're talking 35,600, 35,700 in total would be the available capacity and people residing in IPAS. So there's 2,500 empty beds in the IPAS, and how many empty beds in Ukrainian, minus ARP, which would be very complicated to... We're at about 2,000? Empty beds. Empty beds, yeah. Okay, so in total in the system, there's about 4,500 empty beds, 2,500 IPAS, 2,000 Ukrainian. I mean, while we have empty beds in IPAS, they're not usable beds, I think that's fair to say, David. Some of them are in the course of refurb at any time, there's a percentage of them out of commission. And then others are, say, the fourth bed in a, you know, there's three people in the room and there's a family in the room and there's a bed, but you can't actually utilise that bed for a person. Is that fair, David? Yes, that's fair, and as well as that, Deputy, we have 1,100, 1,200 people claiming international protection each month. We still have to have some sort of capacity to deal with people coming in and also have a little bit of flexibility in terms of surge capacity as well. To be totally frank, we would prefer to have more than 2,500 available beds at the moment, and of those, only about 250, 280 are available beds for single males. So, in terms of capacity management and risk management, we prefer to have a little bit more. And so, out of these 4,500 empty beds, how many are usable? How many don't fall into the category of a fourth bed in a family room of three, which clearly would be inappropriate to put someone in? In terms of the 2,500, the IP side, most of those would be usable at this moment. Most of those are usable, so it could be a rough 1,500? No, no, most of them. Over 2,000 usable beds in IPAS, okay. And in Ukrainians? 2,000. 2,000, yeah. Okay, so we have 4,000 usable vacant beds today. Well, then, can you tell me why there's over 500 men sleeping rough on the streets? Obviously, that's a situation that we're not happy with at all, Deputy, but we have people arriving every day, and we have to do vulnerability assessments on those people, and we have to retain a certain number of beds in order to be able to respond to that. David might expand on that, if that's okay. In very simple number terms, Deputy, and we are dealing with humans here as people, I don't want to minimise that factor at all. And as the Secretary General pointed out, it's not a situation we're happy about. But of the 500-odd males awaiting an offer of accommodation, if we were to make that offer, and all of them accepted it, we wouldn't be able to give them all a bed. We only have about 280 available single-male beds. So, straight off, we wouldn't be able to fulfil that. But on top of that, in a typical week, a further 110, 120 single-male applicants are claiming international protection. So, even if we ask 500 that are awaiting an offer, do you want it, and 280 took up that offer, the very next day, we can be able to offer accommodation to any single-male. We have vulnerability triage on the day people apply for international protection for single-males. So, if anyone is deemed to be so vulnerable that they need a bed on the day, we will give it to them if beds are available. If we were to offer all the limited beds we had available to all single-males, we wouldn't even be able to do that vulnerability triage in a humane way. And so, just to go back to the figures, you're telling me there's most of 2,500 beds are available, but only about 280 of those would be available for single men. The others are all in family units? Family, couples, single women, a sort of mix of versions of that, yes, Deputy. In terms of the Ukrainian beds, the 2,000 Ukrainian beds, what's the kind of gender, family mix, breakdown of that? It translates into about 640 rooms, so I can't give you the correct configuration of that. But just to say that, in terms of, we have a 90-day policy in place that has been changed to a 30-day policy, but we do accept exemptions. So, if somebody comes into the state and is looking for a 30-day accommodation, and they have a medical need, we need to accommodate them. So, we need a buffer on that. So, we have, as I said, 2,000, that's a 10% buffer. In the next six weeks, we will get that down to 7% as well. So, again, the difference between Ukraine and international protection is, it's far more of a temporary nature, and the conditions attached to IP are far more detailed and owners. So, we are driving down that. If I could just add, I mean, there was a fair bit of work done on this over the course of 2025. We started off in March of last year with 3,500 people homeless, and, I mean, it's still 500, which is a huge number, but it is down from 3,500 at the beginning of the year. We are under some pressure in relation to the single male accommodation, as David has said. We had accommodation, for example, at the CMH in Dundrum, which is not available to us at the moment because the LDA have moved on that site. So, we keep this under review on a daily basis, and we really do put a lot of effort into trying to accommodate people, but it's maintaining that balance. And are there more single male IPAS beds in the system now than there were a year ago, or less? I couldn't be sure, Deputy. I would say probably a little less because between the Central Mental Hospital and a few others, we've had a shrinkage of available. Now, some of that we knew was coming down the lines. We tried to, as the Secretary General pointed out, we tried to sensibly manage the portfolio in that dynamic and not put ourselves in a situation where, when the Central Mental Hospital beds went out as a system, we were in a crisis scenario. We tried to manage it knowing that. And we do an analysis every week in terms of are there beds within the system where they're single male or families or couples that we feel may be in jeopardy, contracts may not be renewed, we're doing inspections, we may have concerns. So, we're always looking at that and doing a profiling. And if you've got currently 534 people who have fled here seeking asylum, are currently homeless, a breach of the Charter of Fundamental Rights, why aren't we, one, using the 280 or so beds that are made for single men, which is what these people are, why aren't we just putting them in there as opposed to putting them on the streets? And two, why aren't we reallocating some of the accommodation? Like, I don't fully understand the Chinese wall between the Ukrainians and the IPAS, but even repurposing family rooms or whatever, in order to, we have capacity, why are people... So, there's two parts. One is the 280, which is the simplest thing, and the second one is kind of repurposing, which I accept would take a bit of work. That's okay, Deputy. On the... Just maybe give a little bit of what we also do in the system as well. I spoke about the vulnerability triage on the day people arrive. We also have partnerships with non-governmental organisations in Dublin that provide day services and food and capacity to wash and do laundry. We also have a partnership with an NGO service that does seven-day outreach services in the evenings and at night to identify rough sleepers. So, we take this very seriously. We have the weekly expense allowance, which is €39. It's paid, but on top of that, we pay a further €75 to asylum seekers awaiting an offer of accommodation. So, there is a lot in the system in terms of reception condition offers. You're giving people... Sorry, it's not your fault, but a lot in the system, giving people £100 a week to sleep on the streets and you give them a tent. That's... Come on, that's not a lot in the system. These people are fleeing here. Giving clarity on what we are doing. In terms of the 280 beds, I think, as I said previously, if we were to offer all 500... Yes. ...males awaiting an offer of accommodation, we wouldn't be able to give them all a bed. We only have 280. And then, on top of that, we know there are certain centres within the system for single males that might be unlikely to remain in the system, whether they want to exit themselves or whether we have concerns. So, we need to retain a small buffer for that reason as well. And, as I say, between people who would be identified under vulnerability triage or identified as vulnerable through the outreach service, we need beds for those people as well. So, quite frankly, 280 is very much on the line. So, I think that explains that aspect of your question, Deputy. On your second question around the reallocation, we've done that. So, part of the reason we've been able to reduce the number from 3,500 to 500, even with certain centres exiting from the system, has been pivoting the system like that. So, that has worked to a certain extent. We do, as part of contracts with a lot of providers, it does specify that it's for families or couples or a mix. And we're not in a position to amend those contracts or providers aren't in a position that they want to amend it. So, our hands are somewhat tied in scenarios like that as well. So, it's not a thing that we haven't done it. We have, but I think we've reached a point where we don't have as much flexibility within the system to do it much further. Just if I could ask a final question. I mean, look, these are people who have potentially gone through horrendous trauma, seen family members killed, have fled horrific situations and are now sleeping on the streets. Do you keep data on where these people are and do you keep data on assaults on homeless asylum seekers? We do keep in touch with the guards, obviously. I would say, Deputy, I don't think all 500 are on the streets somewhere or couch surfing and so forth. I'm not saying that's a great solution either, but it's just manifestly they're not all on the streets. You don't know? I mean, I live in the city. No, no, I'm not saying... I'm not a sort of person, but the department doesn't know. Is that true? You don't know whether people are off-sleeping or... We have outreach through NGOs that we contract to monitor rough sleepers and that there are a small number of rough sleepers. Too many, but at the same time, it's a small number and we do keep taking interest in that and we keep in touch with the guards about, obviously, the safety of people is a paramount concern. A small number is like 300? No, I couldn't put a number on it, but manifestly, at times, they're not all homeless and sleeping rough. I mean, yeah, maybe, yeah, but you don't know. It seems strange to me. And in terms of keeping data on attacks on asylum seekers, who your department have put onto the streets, in line with government policy, it's not your personal responsibility, but do you keep figures on... We don't have data, but the guards definitely pay close attention to the safety of people who are sleeping rough. Thanks a lot.