Paul Murphy: Demands Full Public Ownership of Church Schools
Paul Murphy challenged the Taoiseach over the Catholic bishops' decision to hand patronage of eight schools and warned the transfers may not include full public ownership. He argued for fully secular, fully public education and pressed for clarity on whether the buildings will be transferred or leased.
Patronage transfer of eight schools
The speaker noted the bishops agreed this week to hand over patronage of eight schools so they can become secular, but stressed this follows a decade of discussion since the 2012 forum on patronage. He warned that at the current pace it would “literally take 3,000 years” to achieve a secular primary system and raised reports that the church may retain ownership and expect the state to pay rent annually.
Statistics on multi-denominational provision
He set out figures showing 159 primary schools now have a multi-denominational ethos, about nine more than the 2009 figure of 150. At post-primary level he said multi-denominational schools rose from 321 in 2009 to 359 in 2020 - an increase of circa 11% - and noted that post-primary change has been faster than at primary level.
State investment and ownership concerns
The speaker emphasised that the state has invested heavily in school buildings and argued that this investment should be reflected in ownership arrangements. He asked the Taoiseach to clarify whether the schools would be fully transferred into public ownership or leased back to religious bodies and said he would follow up on the transfer of buildings.
ETBs, plebiscites and past measures
He said he favours greater involvement of ETBs in new primary schools and recalled that, as a minister of education, he reduced patron contributions to site acquisition to facilitate the growth of Educate Together and other providers. He reiterated that parents have a right to choose and described the plebiscite process used in determining patronage.
Legislative and payment issues
He reported that the minister has written to the religious orders but has not yet received a substantive reply on contributing to a payment scheme. He also said the redress scheme requires legislation and must go through the house before progress can be made.
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Thanks, that's Ken Corley. Taoiseach, the Catholic bishops have this week finally agreed to hand over patronage of eight schools so that they can become secular schools. This is after a decade of talk following the forum on patronage in 2012. Eight schools, Taoiseach. At this rate, it will literally take 3,000 years to finally have a secular primary school system in this country. Even more alarming than that, Taoiseach, is the reports today that the church may be doing exactly what Deputy Boyd Barrett was explaining in relation to the National Maternity Hospital in relation to these schools, i.e. hanging on to the actual ownership of these schools and expecting the state to pay them to rent every year for the use of these schools. Can you clarify, Taoiseach, if these schools are being fully transferred into public ownership or will they be leased from them and when will the full details of the deal be published? We obviously stand for a fully secular, fully public education and healthcare, taking them fully out of the control of the church and into the hands of the state, democratically controlled by staff, parents and communities that they serve. In terms of the schools, we have 159 primary schools with a multi-denominational ethos. That's about nine above the 2009 figure of 150. At post-primary level, multi-denominational schools have increased by circa 11 per cent. From 321 in 2009 to 359 in 2020. I reckon that's 359 out of about, if I'm not mistaken, 850 maybe. I can check that. So at post-primary level, it's moved much more quickly. And I do accept elements of what Deputy Tobin said. In 1998, the idea was a pluralist place of education that parents would have a right to choose a particular form of education and there was different patrons. It could be great school and educate together. By the way, I was a minister of education that facilitated the growth of education together by reducing the contribution that patrons had to make to sites acquisition, which was very prohibitive at the time and was the biggest barrier to building new schools and religious ethos schools from Church of Ireland, Catholic schools and so on. And various trusts have been set up as the orders have declined in numbers. And so what has evolved over time has been a pluralist system in terms of provision. That has been made possible by state investment. And it is a more expensive model than simply saying we just do one type and let's have a uniform type across the board. I favour a primary level greater involvement in the ETBs in any new schools because I think ETBs have capacity and resources in terms of providing for schools. When I was last in government in the previous one, we were the first to develop state-owned VEC primary schools in the Dublin area where there were fast-growing populations and there was a need for such schools. But again, the multidenomination and Educate Together have grown their capacity and their administrative capacity they have grown to be able to accommodate the expansion of multidenomination and non-denomination education. But equally those with religious ethos, the parents who want to send to a particular school are entitled to do that as well. And what happens is plebiscites are held in given locations. There is a transparent voting situation where parents vote in respect of school choice. And that has happened. No, I think on the transfer of buildings, I follow that up because my own view is the state has invested a lot in these school buildings. In many respects, we've built new schools on existing sites. That has to be reflected. And ideally, the mission of the churches in the past was to commit to education. That ethos should continue as a contribution to the state. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The Minister of Government has written to the religious orders. No, I don't think he has got a substantive reply yet in terms of contributing to the payment scheme. And I hear what you're saying in respect of the redress scheme. And that has to be legislated for it and it has to go through the house. And in effort clearly that all of these things will be consciousnessços foripping the house tomade reservacies after praying for blessings. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. You may have 50 Praise to you. They want me to talk about what was happening today. Thank you. Well.
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