Gino Kenny: Calls for Decriminalisation and a Health-Led Drugs Policy

Thanks to the Minister and members of the HSE. Minister, I just want to get cut to the chase, really. The elephant in the room is, is the present drugs policy in Ireland working? I would say it does not, and it will continue not to work. in relation to the prevalence of drugs in our society. And obviously there is huge effects in the communities in relation to drug prevalence. And we have seen, does the criminal justice system, does that kind of deal with the issue? It certainly doesn't. A health-led approach does, has better kind of outcomes. And if you want to look at a model that certainly works, you have to look at Portugal. And in Portugal, they had a pretty, pretty kind of bad situation before they introduced a system called decriminalisation. decriminalisation. And decriminalisation, without going into the kind of the full workings of it, takes people away from the criminal justice system. And it kind of looks at a holistic approach to those that use drugs in our society. So to me, that is a better approach. Are we going, are we going heading towards that? I think there are elements in the government that are hugely kind of resistant to that. And there would be elements that would be kind of open to that idea. But this has been talked about for decades now. And nothing has really been done. People have kind of set on their hands and paid lip service to the ongoing situation. So, with that minister, there has to be a different approach. And that different approach has to be radical. Very radical. Has to be very different from what has happened before. Because otherwise, we will be speaking about the same things in 10 years time. And that approach is decriminalisation. And possibly looking at other drugs for legalisation. So, is there a policy in the department at the moment to change the present policy? Which I think essentially just pays lip service to a head-led approach. Because criminalising people for drug use simply doesn't work. Simply doesn't work. You look at what is happening in the European Union at the moment, particularly around cannabis use, Malta, Luxembourg and Germany. And Germany will be legalising cannabis in their lifetime in this government. So, you can see how this is going. And that Ireland should lead on this. Because the present policy, as I said, to me, doesn't work. It alienates people, marginalises people and stigmatises people. So, we need a different approach. So, is the department going to have a different approach in relation to what it has been doing in the last 25 years? Thanks very much, Deputy Kenny. Again, I would say that the national drug strategy reducing harm and supporting recovery is the way forward. We did establish a working group to consider alternative approaches during that in December 2017. Effectively, the working group examined the option of decriminalising drugs and it did not deem it an appropriate option in the Irish context due to legal difficulties. And they are very, very concerned that it could lead to a de facto legalisation of drugs, as well as operational difficulties for the GRD. But, effectively, at the moment, there is no, I suppose, desire at government level to decriminalise or legalise drugs, especially cannabis. I think we are talking about cannabis as well. I might bring in, you know, the work of cannabis is a drug and it is a dangerous drug, the same as tobacco and alcohol. And it needs to be regulated to a certain extent. But what I will do, I might bring in my colleague, maybe Eamonn Keenan, who deals with this, if you have any views. Thank you, Minister, and thank you definitely for the question. I suppose the Minister has highlighted the report on the working group, which identified that we should be looking at health diversion for people who are caught in possession of drugs for personal use. There is a working group looking to implement that. So the plan would be that if somebody is caught in possession of all drugs for personal use, that in the first instance, that person would be directed to the health service for a screening and brief intervention. The HSE have been provided with money to set up that screening and brief intervention service, but there are legislative issues that need to be addressed to allow that referral to come in to the HSE. And if we get somebody coming into us in that regard, then, and we identify that that person has a problem, we can move them towards a health-based intervention. And that's the idea behind health diversion. And I think we're committed to that. The implementation working group is committed to that. In the second instance, then, somebody caught in possession could move down the route of an adult caution so that they don't end up with a criminal conviction. Because you're correct in terms of the significant impacts that criminal conviction can have on a young person. So very much we are committed to trying to make that work so that somebody who's caught can move to a health-based intervention. The working group did not go down the route of decriminalization because of the differences in the legislative policies between Portugal and Ireland. And it's also worth pointing out that, as well as decriminalization, Portugal invested significant amounts of money in developing their addiction services. So it wasn't just simply one issue which led to improvements in that area. And I think the Minister's point in relation to cannabis is that there are harms associated with cannabis. And we do see people presenting for treatment with cannabis. And it was interesting in relation to the recent TALA Drugs Task Force report that the drug which was causing most harm in that community was cannabis. So let's not move away from the fact that cannabis can cause harm, but let's get people who are having problems associated with cannabis into the health service. Okay. Well, look, I just don't want to focus on one particular drug. That's cannabis. There is a lot worse drugs in society than cannabis, I can tell you now. I can tell you now that will literally kill someone and obliterate communities. So that's factual. And I just think some of that stuff is kind of hysterical, kind of how people kind of make observations, particularly around cannabis use. But Minister, just again, to be broad, when we talk about kind of the ongoing kind of small battle against drug crime, drug gangs, like that battle can never be won. It just can't be won in relation to the present policies. And what happens is that once you make something illegal, which certain all these illicit drugs have been, does it make it safer for society? So I pose that question, and I'm probably not going to get an answer. But does make something illegal make it safer? I would say it doesn't. In fact, it actually drives criminal gangs to fill that vacuum. And there is no regulation or control in relation to drugs, except the black market. So that's the situation we have at the moment. Just the final thing in relation to drug task force. In the CHO7 area that I would represent, which is quite substantial, there is a quarter of the drug task force are in CHO7. And I know from the task force that I am more afraid, there has been a kind of, I suppose, culture in the last few years, not in relation to this task force, but in relation to task force across the country, of losing their independence. Because remember where drug task force were originally, why they were set up? They were set up because there was an epidemic of drug abuse, drug use in particular working class areas, where it was just decimating communities. So there had to be a reaction. And the reaction was a community based approach to how to deal with these issues, which are hugely complex. They stem from socio-economical disadvantage. So once you have all that, drug task force have been very influential in relation to reacting. But if they lose their kind of independence and kind of their element of being community based, I think it will, you know, make the problem much, much worse. So it is important that drug task force do not lose their independence under any guise. Yes, just, you know, Deputy Kenny, you are trying to point it out about stigmatising. We have to take the stigma out of people who use drugs. I think the last few years with the health-led approach and also the work ongoing with justice has been quite considerable. You talk about the task forces and look, the task forces are the eyes and ears of the community. They are effectively brought to the attention of the HSE what needs to be funded, what areas need to be tackled. You are absolutely right, the services that they have provided for decades have been incredible. But, you know, in every task force and in every group now that you need proper governance and good governance, and you need structures in place. I am not saying that the task force does not have those structures, but things evolve and the way we do our business evolves. And I think officials working with the HSE, I think there are a lot of good governance there. Getting back to, you know, the decriminalisation or legalisation of drugs, in my journeys around the country, I have gone to many treatment centres and I have engaged with the experiences of drug users. And I asked them one question, you know, and it was, these are mostly young men, and I asked them, you know, the question exactly you put to them. And I was absolutely surprised that the vast, vast majority absolutely opposed any legalisation of cannabis. They cited the harm to themselves, their loved ones and their mental health. But they also felt that no matter what grade you had effectively cannabis in, most people would be looking for more of a high and young kids on the rating would still be targeted. And that was, I was surprised myself. And I think when we have a citizens assembly, and I hope we have one as quickly as possible, all the views and your views, which are pertinent as well, will be brought to that citizens assembly. But I can never forget my two, those interventions, which I was quite surprised at, because there is a narrative out there to legalise and decriminalise. And I think we have gone an awful long way with the, as I said, the national drug strategy of reducing harm supporting recovery and a health-led approach. And I think that's the right approach. And, you know, when you talk about the work in Portugal, effectively, the Portugal approach, as Eamon Keenan said, isn't compatible with the Irish legal system. Okay. . . . .