Matt Shanahan: Supports Sick Pay Bill but Warns of SME Burden

Thank you, Chair. I congratulate the Chair as a group colleague there for the position you're assuming today. Atonis to this bill acknowledges that Ireland to date does not have a mandatory employer-funded sick pay scheme of some sort within the EU. And one of the obvious impacts of not having a sick pay scheme as you outlined means that some workers would take the decision to attend work even when sick. And in the context of infection spread and COVID, I think we well understood the damage that can do, the potential for injury at work or injury being caused to fellow employees. And that is absolutely something I don't think anybody, employer or employee, would want to see. You outlined that the Department have done quite a bit of background work here and that up to 50% of workers in the state, you feel, are already covered by either statutory or employee sick pay schemes. And you also know quite well that the public sector worker enjoys a sick pay scheme already. That's an anomaly here for employers in the private sector to each account of the scheme because small and private employers who are presently going to have to now fund the scheme will be funding it out of their revenues while public sector bodies and employees are being funded from the state. So I think this is an equity that exists across a number of other areas in the state and it is something that we will have to look at going forward. I don't think it's entirely fair, particularly for small, medium, micro enterprises that suddenly they have to suffer this cost and maybe the state can have some look at remediation in terms of that. There are annual entitlements that you have highlighted three days to be coming on the scheme and I don't think anybody would say it is a significant burden on small business, but I think it could be as the scheme ramps up potentially up to, I think it's 10 days is what you're envisaging over the next three to four years. It is my experience, Tarnished, that most small businesses do their best to cover genuine sick days as they understand it is a fundamental part of employer-employee relations and it assists them with retaining staff and valuing staff. And there is no doubt that lower paid workers, contract workers and part-time workers need to have some scheme to support access to sick leave and therefore I support the bill that you are progressing here today. You have outlined also, Tarnished said that this bill represents just one part of a suite of legislation that government is hoping to roll out to further protect employee rights and safeguards in this state. And I don't believe anyone could argue with a socially progressive agenda to benefit all citizens, all workers, but most especially those who are productively earning and generating tax revenue. This is needed to pay the social contract that we all have signed up to and aspire to, to look after every single individual in this state when they are in need. But given that you reference, this scheme is really only needed for those in private employment and for those who are essentially low paid. This also points to the vulnerability of business, which, as you outlined, for a small and medium sectors are grappling with the effects of COVID and the impacts it has had on their business to date. You are well aware, Tarnished, of the many businesses that have warehoused debt, evading of government COVID schemes, and this is going to be somewhat precarious for businesses when they have to engage again with revenue in terms of the repayment of that debt. They are facing now also increased costs, environment across the board in terms of manufacturing and service provision, and they are struggling to recruit across many sectors also, and this is particularly applicable to food manufacturing and the construction sector, as you know. Tarnished, I do not subscribe to the view that every employer is out to screw their employees, that every employer seeks profit at every turn, and that every employer sees only capital labour, and not the faces of those they employ. In fact, many small employers that I know are intrinsically involved with the lives of their employees. They celebrate family days, they celebrate family days, communions, confirmations, and sometimes holiday events. I have a concern at times as to how private employment is portrayed in this house, and sometimes in this state. We have over 900,000 workers in this country employed in the SME sector. Many are promoted by people who have risked everything to build on a dream, to start a business, to see it grow, and to provide a financial future for their families and those that they employ, something they can all come to depend on. But I have to confess frustration, Tarnished when I hear that bodies like IBEC and ICTU have been consulted and expressed support for whatever legislation is being proposed, and yet very little representation is offered to indigenous small business owner operators, micro enterprises. I beck and ICTU representing the wishes of large-scale businesses in this country, and the aspirations of large-scale public sector unions. I have expressed in the House in the past my disappointment at the lack of small business representation on the leaf, Tarnished, the Labour Employer Economic Forum. You have mentioned today that one size legislation may not fit all, but yet in effect that is exactly what is being proposed here today. One thing this bill does not recognise in my opinion is the cost to small business, where statutory sick pay must also be added to subcontractor costs to cover employee absence. This happens frequently in the agricultural sector, the dairying sector, the construction and the fabricating sector, Tarnished. If I were to propose an amendment to this bill, it would be to find some sort of tax credit available to micro and small business enterprises where these additional costs were incurred while supporting a statutory sick pay scheme can be offset or ameliorated to some point. The issue of access and cost to GP referral has been covered a number of times already. I think it is something that needs further work obviously, particularly for the low paid, where accessing a GP will really largely write off the benefit of them looking for their statutory sick day. This also raises the question, Tarnished, as you well know, of the difficulty of getting more GPs, I suppose, getting them to graduate and getting them to stay in the system in Ireland. We have a major problem around the country, as you know, with GPs retiring. I just wonder how this scheme is going to work in the context of most people now ringing a GP will find they may not get an appointment on the day that they want to see them. I look forward in the main, Tarnished, to the progression of this legislation. I have to say I do hope to see a change in the attitude and the language of some in this House, and I do not include the government parties in that, with respect to the positioning and the representation of private employment in this country. We have many businesses in this country that cannot recruit at this moment in time, and to suggest that wide exploitation is happening in this country and is being deliberately targeted on employee groups is something I will not accept. We largely have robust legislation in this country that covers the world of work. We absolutely need additions to that, and Government has proposed some of the suite of measures that you are considering to improve and to remove the shortfalls where they occur. But most of all, we need a collaborative approach between all employers and specifically between those who are most marginal, the small, the medium and the micro enterprises, so that all representations can be done on a managed basis and that all aspirations can be achieved. And that we wind up with agreements that reflect the needs of small and marginally profitable businesses, as well as the needs of larger employers. In that environment, progressive legislation can be tabled and adopted, ensuring the rights of workers, but also the ability of our productive sector to continue to compete and to grow. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Shannon. Thank you, Shannon.