Bríd Smith questions charges for student nurses' flu vaccination

Goonaugut, Cathaoirleach. Minister, we've heard a lot about student nurses and the work they're doing at the front line at the moment, but I want to ask you specifically this morning why they are being asked to pay for the flu jab. It's perfectly understandable that they would receive the flu jab given that they are frontline workers and working very hard with patients in COVID wards etc. But why do people, and particularly when they're not being paid for the work they do, why are they being expected to pay for a simple thing like the flu jab. And there's a number of nurses who've come to us on this issue so I'd like a comprehensive answer please. Minister Donnelly. Thank you very much Chair and I'd like to thank Deputy Smith for her question and I have to say when I received her question it alarmed me because the question suggested something that should not be happening. And so obviously I asked for it to be looked into. The flu vaccine is free for all healthcare workers working in our public and voluntary hospitals and to all healthcare workers delivering frontline services. It is also available free of charge to all students on clinical placement. Students can access it in local occupational health clinics, vaccination clinics staffed by their peers and at their local GP and at their local pharmacy. My department of the HSC are not aware of a situation where students on clinical placement have been charged to receive the vaccine. If the deputy is aware of individual cases where this has occurred, I'd like to tell the deputy categorically that that should not have happened. And if the deputy would like to revert to me with any individual cases, I will guarantee that they will be followed up. This year, given the potential for winter flu to coincide with the resurgence of COVID and the importance of minimising hospital attendance. The government expanded the provision of vaccination without charge to all of those in the HSC defined at risk groups, including healthcare workers. The amount of vaccine made available this winter is almost double the amount administered last winter. Healthcare workers are at an increased risk of getting flu. They also have the potential to spread flu by virtue of their contact with patients. And so they can also prevent the spread of flu obviously by getting the vaccine. It is recommended therefore that everyone working in a healthcare setting should get the flu vaccine. This includes medical, nursing, allied health students, including those working in residential disability services. Thank you, Minister, for that answer. And I will provide you with information on it. But again, we're hearing in relation to student nurses, this should not be happening. This should not be happening that they're not getting paid for work that they're doing. This should not be happening that they should not be working. They should be studying. This should not happen. They should be supervised and they should be learning rather than working. But it is happening. And I will provide you with the information. And I totally get it. Workers who work on the front line need to be protected from the flu. But they are being asked to pay for it. And I will send you the information on that. But maybe the problem is that they're not defined as workers when they're working, because you've read out a statement there that I know at the end of it, it covers all students, but it defines those working in the health sector. So I think at the very least we need to recognise that they are actually working and that this will not happen in the future. So just to clarify that it won't happen and I will give you information. Deputy Minister Donnelly. Thank you very much, Deputy. The two issues are separate issues with regards to the students and allowances should be paid. And I know you and others are advocating that they become part of the paid workforce. The colleges are strongly opposed to that. They are very worried about it. They believe that comparisons with the apprenticeship model could set the profession back decades. Certainly comparisons have been made in this house with Australia. In Australia they run the apprenticeship model and a graduate degree model. The opportunities available to the graduates, to the degree programme graduates, are significantly better than those available to the apprenticeship graduates. A lot of the really exciting and important developments in the nursing and midwifery professions happening right now are because they are degree graduate students, including enhanced nurse practitioner specialist roles and so forth. But specific to the issue at hand, Deputy, it is a clear policy of the HSE that all students get the vaccination for free. And I would be very happy to look into individual people who are coming to you. Because certainly as Minister for Health I very much want to know if any of our students on their clinical placement are being charged. And I will act on it if that is the case. Thank you. Minister Deputy. Final supplementary. Well, just to comment on everything you're saying, I appreciate your answer. But the fact is that it's almost like the government are blinkered to the fact that we are in a pandemic still. Ignore that. There should be students, they should be training. But actually they are students and they are working. And it is not that we are demanding that they become part of the workforce. We recognise that they're students. But what we also recognise is that every hour that they work should be paid for. Because it's work that a normal care worker would do. You know, emptying bedpans, washing patients, taking their vitals, sometimes administering liquids and fluids to them. So it isn't that they're not working. And on the front line, when you're not being paid for your work and then being asked to pay for your flu job, it's adding insult to injury and it really needs to stop. Now, you want me to draw attention to specifics, but a lot of things happen in the HSE that should not happen. And I know care workers in the HSE who've been basically witch hunted for making any criticism of their employment or their employer. And it's really not acceptable that it is like the the Politburo for workers that work within it. And some of these nurses will be nervous about giving their names for that very reason. There's a bad culture there. And this is only another example of that bad culture. But the culture that we have to stamp out is the exploitation of student nurses. Minister, you're... Thank you for that, Deputy. And obviously we're talking about a different issue now, but I'm very happy to talk about it. There are two separate issues, Deputy. One is, are students being asked to do inappropriate activities while on their clinical placements? And various testimony has been read out in the Dáil and various students have given testimony in the media and online. And as Minister for Health, I take those allegations deadly seriously. I have initiated a full review of all of the allegations. I'm meeting with all of the directors of nursing on these allegations because there cannot be a situation where these students are being treated as workers. It is imperative as part of their degree education that they are full time students. First, second and third year, they spend the majority of their time on campus. The HSE provides clinical placements where they can link theory and practice. I can tell you that their educators are strongly opposed to the idea that they would become part of the paid workforce in the HSE. And essentially their argument is we want to protect them as students. We want to protect their learning. And if you start paying them as workers in a system, they could be treated as such. So as you'll be aware, I am seeking a short review to be finished by the end of this month in cooperation with the representative bodies to look at their allowances. And we want to see if we can increase the allowances during COVID to reflect what is a very difficult time. And if such a recommendation is made, then I have committed to the students and I've committed to their representative organizations in writing that those increases in allowances would happen from January. Thank you, Minister.