Bríd Smith urges public transport focus over EV reliance

Thanks very much. Thank you for your presentations this morning. I just want to start by asking the Department about the recent EPA report, which said our emissions rose by 6 per cent. In that context, we know that each sector must reach the upper range to be compatible with the overall 51 per cent reduction. Every shortfall in the first five-year budget makes the second one practically insurmountable. So, realistically, could you comment on what chance there is of every sector hitting that target range on the current projections? Will I ask the transport question? Okay. I think it is clear from your statement that the only real game in town, and from the sort of pushing that we have had from the bill, is the electrification of the private car fleet. But it seems to me that all the work and emphasis in the scale of the ambitions that we have should be on public transport, increasing railway, trams, etc., and really focusing on rural Ireland. And certainly the plans by the NTA in terms of the bus fleet, etc., isn't at the races. It's really all down to electric vehicles. So, I think I'd like to draw a link between the solutions in both agriculture and transport that seem to be hooked onto new technology as a solution. And with EV cars, there is a problem because if we plan to hinge our targets on a million EV cars, we are depending on mass manufacturing and distribution of these fleets, something in itself which, regardless of them being electric, would have a massive cost to the carbon emissions in order to build them and manufacture them. And again, the purpose, I think, of this technology is to keep things as they are, to keep the private car as the real reliance that we have on transport. So, would you comment on the ambition for public transport in rail and bus and rural transport that we need to achieve? Okay. I think the first question is for Ms Egan. Ms Egan. Thank you, Deputy. The EPA report certainly highlighted the challenges that Ireland faces as we seek to meet our ambitious targets. And I think to reverse the current trajectory of emissions and meet our 2013-2050 targets, a significant shift will be required at the speed in which all sectors roll out and ramp up the measures and actions that will decarbonise our economy. And so, you know, following the sectoral ceilings and the carbon budgets being, you know, legally adopted, the design and the structure of the next climate action plan will be implementing the sectoral ceilings. And in the process of our negotiations with the other departments in kind of fleshing out the next climate action plan, you know, we'll be doing a lot of analysis on the actions and measures in order to achieve the target. And, you know, it's through that process that we will be working out the pathways to hit the target ranges. And directly, could you answer the question I asked that, do each of the sectors have to achieve the upper limit in order to even begin to try and reach the 51%, which even then would be difficult? Well, yeah, I mean, CAP 21 sets out that in order to reach the targets, it is the upper ranges that will need to be implemented. Thanks. Thanks. And there was questions for Mr. Martin and his colleagues. Thank you very much. I'll take that one initially, Chairman. Thank you very much, Deputy Smith, for the question. I wouldn't necessarily agree that we are saying that electric vehicles are the only game in town. Of course, they do have a strong role to play here, both in the context of private electric vehicles, but also in terms of the electrification of the public transport fleet. But having said that, our statements and our commitments in CAP 21, looking across a whole range of other areas as well. So while EVs do have a role to play, this is definitely a multifaceted approach. And one of the key areas that we are looking at is increasing the number of sustainable transport journeys taken daily up to half a million per day. So that would include public transport. It would include active travel. Now, there is huge investment ongoing, as you're aware at the moment, in public transport. Some of it will take longer than others, but we do have projects like Dart Plus, Bus Connects, Connecting Ireland, the Metrolink, all planned. And some of these will be online within the timeframes we're talking about, not all of them, obviously. But I think we're also looking at fairly significant investments in improving the existing services and improving the reliability and attractiveness of the existing services to increase the use and modal shift from private cars to public transport. We're also looking significantly in the area of active travel, almost 60% of journeys less than two kilometres are by car. And we do have a strong role to play as a department. And our agencies also have a strong role to play in terms of communicating to people the importance of modal shift away from private car, be it a fossil fuel car or an EV, and moving into other forms of transport, more sustainable forms of transport. So public transport and active travel. I do think in the context of rural Ireland, that is a very important point, that we do need to enhance the services offered in rural Ireland, and that is what Connecting Ireland is all about. That will take a while to roll out, but there are improvements being made on an ongoing basis. And on an annual basis, the NTA review their services, review the delivery of their rural services, and look to identify improvements that can be made, not just in terms of the routes and the frequency, but also in terms of the attractiveness of that, in terms of improved bus shelters, real time travel timetables, et cetera, et cetera. So I do think this is very much a multifaceted approach and isn't focused just on EVs. In terms of EVs themselves, I might ask my colleague, Dr. Aoife O'Grady, to make some comments. And Andrea Lennon may also wish to comment in the context of biofuels, which also have a very important role to play in the eight years between now and 2030. Thank you, Mr. Martin. Ms. O'Grady, go ahead. Ms. O'Grady, thank you, Chair, for the question. Just to reiterate the comments my colleague John has just made, that while EVs are a significant part of the Department of Transport's action to reduce carbon emissions, and they're probably the single biggest element of our carbon reduction plan, they still would equate to only 40% of our total emissions reduction. So the majority of our emissions reduction will actually come from not electrification of the fleet, will come from active travel, from sustainable travel, from demand management, and from the increase in the use of renewable and sustainable biofuels in our petrol and diesel mix. And just to reiterate again, part of the plan for electrification is not just the electrification of the private passenger car, but the electrification of the taxi fleet and the electrification of freight, as well as the electrification of public transport fleet. And all of those will bring not just carbon emission benefits, but also significant air quality benefits in urban areas. In terms of rural areas, as well as the increased sustainable mobility we need to see, we do know that, you know, the short journeys in rural areas can maybe transition to active and more sustainable travel modes. But we also know that a lot of our citizens in rural Ireland do rely on the private car for use. And where it's not possible for them, we would look, I guess, to the avoid shift improve. Where it's not possible for citizens who rely on the private car to either not make the journey or to shift to a sustainable form of transport, then the next stage in that is to improve the technology. So we would hope that the electrification of the fleet in rural Ireland by the end of the decade would support decarbonisation of those trips. And just one last question. Given that you've just said that the ambitions for EVs would be the least reduction in emissions in the targets, does the department envisage prioritising public transport, free and frequent public transport, hopefully in the future, and particularly throughout rural Ireland, as the priority rather than the EVs? Yeah, sorry, it's not that EVs are the least reduction, they're the biggest individual share and the other three elements, sustainable renewable biofuels, sustainable transport and demand management themselves equate up to the majority, but EVs are the single biggest share. I'll hand over to John in terms of the sustainable transport side, because that's more his briefing. So if you had a priority, would it be the electrification of the fleet or public transport delivery? They're all priorities. We won't deliver the decarbonisation needed in the transport sector by focusing on one. We have four levers, four pillars of our Climate Action Plan, and we have to deliver on all four or we don't meet our decarbonisation goals. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr Grady. Ms Lennon, do you want to come in on the biofuels? I will indeed. So up to 16 to 18% of our carbon reduction will be from biofuels. That's 1.1 megatons of carbon reduction, and that will be to achieve a B20 E10 blend in petrol. Now, we're going to do that by steps every year of about three or 4% in the biofuel blending rate, so that we will hit that target in 2030. On the other alternative fuels that are there, CNG biomethane is one and hydrogen fuel cell is the other technology, as well as electrification. We are looking at refuelling infrastructure under the EU AFER. There will be requirements to have hydrogen refuelling stations. There is already a rollout of CNG biomethane refuelling stations run by Gas Networks Ireland, and that is heavily funded by the EU as well. And then looking at the fuel itself, there needs to be probably more investment in terms of green hydrogen production and route to market for green hydrogen. And we're hoping that the hydrogen strategy by the Department of the Environment will help in that process or provide a regulatory framework for that. On the regulation side, there is a need to look at regulation for green hydrogen, and we are carrying out a study in conjunction with Northern Ireland under the Shared Island Fund on the safety and economic regulation of hydrogen, green hydrogen, particularly focusing on transport use. In terms of public transport, we had the hydrogen fuel cell bus trial. There were three buses. Now, the outcome of that bus trial in the report was that electric still has the stronger case in terms of public transport buses, and there have been recent announcements by the NTA that they're going to focus on electric for urban centres. But in terms of regional routes, the NTA is still open to hydrogen fuel cell in some small quantities perhaps. There's a lot of unknowns still about the operation of those buses. And indeed, we will learn a lot in terms of the electric bus fleet as well. So, there's still a bit of a way to go on that. I think the timeline for the NTA in considering hydrogen fuel cell will be post 2024 in terms of the current tender that they have. Thanks very much. And one short final question to the Department of Transport. You mentioned in your submission possible regulatory and financial or taxation measures that could support transport decarbonisation. Can you elaborate a bit on that? I would don't want to take all your day because there's other people here, but could you elaborate on what you're thinking there? Sure. I'll jump on that in the first instance. I mean, we have seen the benefit of taxation measures in terms of car tax and higher emissions car taxation, where we're looking at the more significantly emitting vehicles being taxed at a very much higher tax band, and that has had effects. So, we are seeing that take effect. But in terms of other measures that we're looking at, I mean, in terms of public transport as well, we are looking at fares there. We've already reduced our fares on public transport by 20% or 50% with the young adult card. So, there are carrots and sticks here, and it's not all about taxation. But leading up to this year's budget, we are looking at a range of different measures in terms of tax, be it tax relief on mobility options, sustainable mobility options, or other taxation levers at our disposal in respect of taxation of private cars. So, I may hand over to Eva O'Grady, if you want to pick up on anything in respect of taxation. Eva O'Grady, Yeah, so we are working with colleagues in the Department of Finance on the Tax Strategy Group to see how it's possible within the taxation system to further incentivise not just electric vehicles, but the lower emission vehicles and to disincentivise the highest emission emitting vehicles. So, that's an ongoing process and the budget each year considers that. I suppose within regulation, just there's a couple of kind of small tweaks that one can make to the regulatory system. So, there was one introduced last year by the Department of Housing that requires all new housing bills to be enabled for EV charging. So, looking at how our infrastructure and any new infrastructure, both on the private, domestic or commercial side, including workplaces and new shopping centres can be designed to already work with the sustainable or decarbonised transport system. All of those are kind of small tweaks we can make, but that will build in to an overall environment that just encourages more sustainable and decarbonised trips. Thanks. Thank you. Okay, thanks.