Rose Conway-Walsh Calls for Independent Investigation of Killings

Goera Magath, Chair, and welcome to Carmel, to John and to Porik. I think this is very significant and I think why it's significant you've been here this morning is because within this committee there's cross-party support so I think we need to come out of this meeting today with a number of very concrete decisions that are going to help you going forward. I had the very humbling experience of joining you for a few days off the inquest and seeing firsthand what you were going through and just resonated with me when Carmel said about the attitude of some of the soldiers in terms of the witnesses given, it was just the attitude and the demeanor I found most shocking in that and I can absolutely understand what the lack of what the lack of justice and how that's preventing you from healing as a family, the lack of accountable justice that you still need to get and that is the challenge that you're putting up for us today in how we do that and in looking at the deficit in the implementation of the Stormont House Agreement. But I suppose my first question is, can you put into words how the families felt when Justice Keegan declared that all those who were killed were innocent and that you knew that you had succeeded in correcting the lies, the lies that demonised and dehumanised the humanised your loved ones? That's my first question. And maybe just to John, in terms of the right to the independent investigation, specifically what we need to do to move that on to make sure that that happens in a speedy way, if you can say speedy after 50 years, and maybe just to talk in terms of the terms of reference that you would need within that investigation as well. And maybe to suggest to the committee from here that we write cross-party solidly to the British Prime Minister, specifically asking what we need him to do at this moment in time, and indeed what we need our Taoiseach to do in terms of putting his pressure on the British Prime Minister as well. Because I get what you're saying, John, in terms of we need more than words, we need the pressure. So if you can just let us know exactly how you would see that pressure manifest in itself from the committee here today. And I just want to thank you again for being here and just to maybe endorse what Paul has said in terms of us visiting the site of the Bally Murphy massacre, but also the Springfield massacre as well, as soon as regulations allow us to do that. I think that we need to do that. I think that the British Government have closed down the criminal justice route, saying that we look forward, not back. Do you have any faith in that, and how will the families navigate around that situation? And the other point is, what can we do as political parties, all the political parties here and outside of here, and what can the Irish Government do to ensure that the justice and accountability for the actions of the British Army, 50 years ago, and what can the Irish Government do to ensure that the justice and accountability for the actions of the British Army, 50 years ago, can actually now be brought to justice. And I do believe that the idea of an amethyst for those, a criminal act has been carried out here, murders have been committed, and what we need actually then is a response to that, where people are charged, and that the criminal justice procedure is actually followed through. So thank you. Sorry for the disruption in my appreciating that. Thank you. Is there anybody else from Sinn Féin who would like to speak now? Have I covered all members there then? Okay, so if John, Carmel or Podic would like to respond, please, to any of those points, you are welcome to come in. I think I can respond to Rose's question. She referred to terms of reference for any investigation. I think, in short, it's the opposite of what they got in 1971. We had a sham process whereby the police responsibility was usurped to investigate crimes. We had an arrangement between the General Officer Command of the Army and the Chief Constable, which meant that lethal force used by soldiers was investigated by the Royal Military Police. And we've seen through the Balamor Murphy inquest that the Royal Military Police were involved in the falsification of statements. And that came through clear and loud at the inquest. What we need, and Stormont House is a route to this, is an independent investigation, which has the appropriate powers to compel documents and witnesses. And, you know, that won't happen. There won't be cooperation, for example, from the MOD unless we have this on a statutory basis. It must take a multidisciplinary approach to that investigation. It must have access to whatever forensic techniques that are required for any modern police type investigation. So it's very, very clear with the key issue. The key issue is independence. The family have never had an independent investigation, and that's something they have a right to and deserve. But we have a framework. We simply don't have the implementation of that framework of the Stormont House Agreement. So we would ask this committee, and I think I'm pushing an open door, listening to the members of the committee today, to continue to call for the British government to implement fully their responsibilities under the Stormont House Agreement, and to oppose proposals for amnesties for soldiers. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your support. Does John or Cameron wish to comment on that? Can I come in there, please? Yeah, of course. Yeah. There's a lot to cover there. I agree with Paddy on the independent investigation, and there are mechanisms that need to be implemented, with the Stormont's agreement, the HIU, and the fact that that is properly put together with acceptable leadership, that that would be good when once had put in place for a number of reasons. And it's for people the whole way across the board. You need to be seeing that. Also, we still have to remember, like I said earlier, about the funding, the funding for mechanisms, the funding for the legal system, that actually mechanisms that we have in place at the moment. We need to back that up, and making sure that funding for the MTO offices aren't protected or lost along the way. Francie was saying about the rollercoaster. It was a rollercoaster. It was a motion of rollercoaster. We thought we were hard and campaigners could get in the inquest, and thought we knew it all when we investigated the deaths of our loved ones ourselves. But once you go into detail of how they died, the pain they would have suffered, the injuries, and how they were left to bleed to death in certain cases also, it was very challenging for the families. And also when we brought in the pen pictures of our loved ones, we actually brought them, our loved ones, into the courtroom. And that was the idea of them, not as another statistic of people who were murdered in Baltimore, but actually bringing them in, who they were, what their character was, who they left behind, how the families were impacted on all that. So it was, like I said, it was a rollercoaster. Cross-party support, as Rosa was saying, we can see what we have at the moment. But again, things need to be implemented. There's, I mean, Andy Kenny, and Staden Coveney, and Paul Murphy, who visited the sites, I know people who were, and different ones had come forward, and visited the sites, and walked in the footsteps of our loved ones also. That would be really, really welcome for families that would be a big lift. For the links of the, when you had the Spring Hole Massacre, where my daddy was murdered, there was, and this is how these, these murders are linked, in the Battle of Murphy area. Where my daddy was murdered, there was a laden-year-old boy, who was severely wounded, and defeated the state of my daddy. He was actually a eyewitness, until how the victims were treated by the army, and they came into the field. His daddy, Paddy Butler, was murdered along with another priest. Exactly 11 months, 9th of July, 1972. So, that's in a small area, and was at the spot where John MacArthur was murdered, outside the church, or outside Corpus Christi church. So, you need, there is a, just in that one area alone. And you have to remember all the children, like Martha Campbell, all these, all these different children murdered by rubber bullets, and all these different things. And it wasn't just adults, it was our children, they were murdered also. So, in their own area, in their own area. So, one of the things that I came across when we were a campaign, is archives. And it helps, and we continue to help. I have to say that it was difficult, when we had turned our attention on the archives, held by the southern government. And I know that a double amount of bombing families are the same. I think, I think that needs to be more accessible. Rather than requesting, they should be open to family members, to who are the experts, in a way, of how their loved ones died, of what information they were looking for. So, that, that's one of the things we had found difficult, when we went down the south. But, like I say, when Andy Canney came to Paul Murphy, what Andy says on that day. He also met the King's Mill families also. And he says he was going to lead by example. So, here's what we need to do with the Irish government. We need to lead by example. Thank you. A contribution as well, Carmel? Yeah, it's just to answer... You're okay? You're fine? It's just to answer Rose's question about how the families felt. The night before, I couldn't sleep at all, because it was just the anticipation of what was going to be delivered. When Justice Keegan did deliver things, I felt absolutely, I felt overjoyed, but also felt very, very, very sad. You know, here we were 50 years later. A lifetime, my lifetime, my mummy wasn't there. My daddy, my eldest sister Tilly, had passed away on Christmas Eve 2014. She had went through the courts with my daddy because my mummy wasn't able in 1970 for the first inquest, which was a sham, as we all know. But the findings, it made me feel a bit relieved because my mummy had asked me and my other sister to prove to the world that her son posed no threat. You know, he was innocent and we did do that. But it was the same day that the Queen was making her speech. And to us, you know, we were waiting on. Right, so we've got these findings. We'll have the truth. Are we going to deny justice now? And then the next day when the Secretary of State for the Six Counties give a so-called apology, it totally deflated the families again. You know, you're way up there and you're feeling, right, we've did this. I mean, we're being deflated again because they've given you the truth, but they're taking away justice. You know, but as a family, we still fail. You know, we did that for my mum and we did that for my brother. But now we need accountability as a family.