Rose Conway-Walsh: Urges Flexibility Over Soaring Class Sizes
Rose Conway-Walsh pressed the minister on overcrowding and teacher allocations in primary schools, urging flexibility for schools with unexpected pupil influxes. She highlighted a Westport school with 114 pupils on the roll but unusually large infant and junior classes, and questioned substitution arrangements and teacher training caps.
Class sizes and emergency flexibility
She raised a specific case of a Jesh school in Fahey in Westport that has seen numbers increase and currently has 114 pupils on the roll. The school now faces 36 pupils in Junior and Senior Infant classes and 31 pupils in first and second year classrooms, prompting a call for flexibility to avoid large combined classes during the pandemic.
Minister's response on pupil-teacher ratios and appeals
The minister noted that pupil-teacher ratios are at a historical low following previous budget measures but acknowledged that exceptional circumstances can arise. The minister pointed to an appeals process for teacher allocations with a published circular and criteria that schools can use in such instances.
Administrative principal leave and substitute arrangements
Conway-Walsh welcomed additional administrative leave days for principals and asked how substitution is arranged. The minister explained that schools form clusters and agree among themselves where a substitute will be based and how release days are allocated, with local engagement and negotiation within the cluster.
Teacher training caps and CAO points pressure
Conway-Walsh queried the high CAO points for primary teaching — as high as 522 — which she linked to a cap on undergraduate places and the shift of many students onto master courses. She said a substantial share of postgraduate training is in one expensive private college and signalled that she will raise the issue with the committee and seek clarity on intake figures for 2022-2023.
Leaving Certificate grades and the lottery concern
She also raised concerns about elevated or inflated grades and the lottery system that can leave students with maximum points still not guaranteed a place. The minister acknowledged the mixed outcomes of recent years and described the 2021 cohort's experience as unprecedented, noting both accredited grades and written exams in extraordinary circumstances.
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Thank you Chair and thank you Ministers for your statements. At this stage a lot has been answered but I trust Minister what I want to ask you for is flexibility around the numbers in schools. I just want to give you a case in point around a Jesh school in Fahey in Westport. So they've seen the numbers increase hugely in the last few years but at present they have 114 pupils on the roll and that will guarantee them the appointment of a new teacher next year. However there's an unexpected large number of new entrants this year with the result that they now have 36 pupils in Junior and Senior Infant School and they have 31 in the first and second year classrooms. So I trust because we're still in the pandemic and because we're trying to make schools as safely as possible I would ask that cases like that could be looked at to see if we can address the situations in those schools so that we don't have 36 pupils and 31 pupils in the same classrooms and teachers trying to manage them. So just some flexibility around that would be really good. And I just want to ask you I very much welcome that you said that in your statement around them additional administrative leave days for principals. How are the decisions made around that to provide for substitution arrangements? So just how is that decided? And the other thing I just wanted to ask you was in relation to because obviously we need more teachers to meet the demand that we have but we've seen the primary teaching CAO points are now as high as 522 largely because the cap the cap on the undergraduate places and the reason you've previously given for the cap is to call supply. But what happens in reality if students are pushed onto the master courses which are predominantly in one very expensive private college that now trains approximately half of the teachers. So this is something I'll be asking the committee here obviously to look at. But when will you be signing off on the intake figures for the academic 2022-2022-2023 because I know this is something that certainly needs changing. I have a number of other questions but I realise I have a very limited time on that. So maybe just to address those two first. Okay thank you very much Deputy. Just in terms of you know the instance that you might raise where there are high class numbers at primary school level I'd have to say to you that pupil teacher ratio as a consequence of work done in the previous budget are at an historical low in terms of pupil teacher ratio. But notwithstanding that I want to acknowledge you know that I would say for example and I'm not okay with the specific case that you raised now but just in terms of generally speaking where there are exceptional situations and exceptional occasions in schools or whatever there is an appeals process just for that specific instance in terms of teacher allocations and it's very clearly published. There is a circular with the necessary criteria and all of that and so just to be very clear that that opportunity does exist for all schools in terms of exceptional circumstance. Just in terms of your question in terms of how the allocation is made for the administrative principals and I want to say just in relation to that that has been hugely embraced by the school principals and it has worked particularly well last year and I was extremely pleased that I was in a position to ensure that that would follow through this year. And specifically how it works is that the schools would form a cluster and then the schools themselves would agree amongst themselves where the substitute individual is based and you know what days are allocated or days are used throughout the cluster. And that has been the experience of last year and it continues this year so that there is an agreement around you know the planned day that would or the release day that would suit the principles within that cluster and obviously there must be engagement and agreement and negotiation I suppose in relation to that within the cluster. And just in terms of the final point you raised deputy was in relation to the points oh yeah the elevated points we say for prime I don't have control over the points aspect of it obviously like you know it varies from year to year and that's the nature of it and I know that you know that can be difficult and particularly demanding for students who wish to pursue a particular pathway. But in terms of the other work that needs to be done in terms of allocation and caps going forward that will be done in due course I can't keep you the specific data as yet deputy but I am quite happy to keep you updated on it. I think it is a really important issue and Minister just in terms of the inflation grades or the grades that we saw this year we saw the situation where we have the lottery system. So my question is you know have you provision made that this would never happen again. Leaving our students right at the moment are thinking if we do our maximum effort and we get maximum points we are still not guaranteed a place that we want to and I know you will agree that this is desperately unjust and something that we cannot stand over. Thank you Deputy Minister. Thank you Deputy Minister. yeah um deputy look i i do want to acknowledge and i i know this from experience myself that leaving certificate day brings great joy and it can bring disappointment for some cao day can bring great joy and it can bring disappointment for some as well and i i you know i do want to acknowledge that but notwithstanding that and i've already outlined it this past year and the previous year have been extraordinary years in extraordinary circumstances and i do think for the class of 2021 it is their achievement that they did manage to to sit a leaving certificate system uh that involved the accredited grades and and the written exams it was an extraordinary unprecedented measure almost unique in the world that they had that opportunity but it was important that they would have it and i'm very proud that schools facilitated it staff facilitated it and students engaged with us notwithstanding that next year will be a different year but i am mindful that as i have said previously that the class of of 2022 as they will be um also had an absence of in-person teaching and learning accommodations are being made for them as well um in terms of um you know exam papers and and all of that and so that you know that they they will have a similar accommodation and we would hope as i have said that that would be the limit of um the experience of closure and everything else going forward um i don't have control over the ceo points um um you know you know that that that is a system that unfolds um but what i am saying is that we are working towards a return to our school with accommodation made for previous absence in school but return as normal as possible going forward for the students thank you very much
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