Rose Conway-Walsh: Warns of 10,000 Apprentice Backlog Blocking Pathways

Thank you, Cathaoirleach. Have we just two comments on the apprenticeships? I agree with everything that's been said, but we have a situation currently where we have a backlog of around 10,000 apprentices waiting to do their apprenticeships. So their apprenticeships should, which would last four years, are lasting five and six years. So we do need to deal with this in real time as well. That's certainly not helping the situation. Also in terms of the PLC courses, even looking at nursing, we have a situation where something like 4% of people who do the nursing PLC can then go on to actually take up nursing. So that's a real problem as well. There are too many blocks there. There are too many very simple blocks that need to be taken away and somebody needs to take responsibility for taking those blocks away. We can be forever in a day talking about the future and the big broader pictures. If we don't remove these blocks, then people are still going to find themselves in that situation where there really aren't defined pathways. And we've spoken about it on this committee and indeed the Good Friday Agreement Committee before around, you know, why don't we have brilliant oncology nurses? Why don't we have them going on to be consultants? Again, there are blocks there that need to be, you know, the pathways aren't clearly defined. And sometimes we take up, you know, a few really good examples and then think, well, you know, this is okay then. We're losing out on the mass, just the direction of travel that we need to be going to with the wider population. And I suppose that feeds a bit into even Ruth in terms of the SFI programmes, excellent programmes, excellent science programmes there. But how do we mainstream those? Because I feel that there's a lot of money, I won't say wasted, but we're not maximising on the investment that we're making for those programmes by not mainstreaming them. And indeed, in some cases, we can be embedding inequalities in it where we have them so closely and defined in maybe geographical areas even. So how do we mainstream those? And what are the blocks to mainstreaming them as we are at the moment? I want to ask you as well, we have some really talented young autistic men and women across the state and we're not investing in them in the way that we should. And that can range from really creative people and people who are excellent at coding and programming, but we're losing a lot of this because we aren't giving them the opportunities to excel to their full ability. OK, maybe I will combine mine to those two questions just to allow for really in-depth answers. OK, who wants to come in? Yeah, yeah, well, I can try and respond there. Thank you, Deputy Conway Walsh. I mean, at its heart in Science Foundation Orange, you know, we are very focused on this idea that everyone has a right to have access to STEM skills. And I think, you know, I've mentioned before, I think a lot of the challenges that we face as a society will at least involve conversations about STEM. I mean, we've all had loads of them over the 18 months where we're all armchair scientists now. So we do embed into our programmes this idea of access and reaching those who don't have the science capital that maybe some of the more privileged in society do. So that is a fundamental objective of our programme, the Discover programme. So when we put in place initiatives to break down those barriers or open doors, they are often focused towards those less privileged communities. And in fact, our science in Ireland barometer that we run to essentially assess what level of access to STEM people have clearly shows us the areas, either regionally where people have less access, but also which communities have less access. And I mean, again, it's not surprising. It's actually young women in socially disadvantaged backgrounds that are least likely to be able to engage with STEM. So we have a number of initiatives that have specifically targeted, you know, getting to those communities. You know, we do, as I mentioned in my statement, we have projects that are targeted on the traveller community, on those in direct provision, those with autism. You know, we funded access to, you know, creation of sign language, Irish sign language for STEM, you know, so that actually people with hearing difficulties can access STEM. So that access piece is at the heart of what we do. I mean, I suppose we are sitting in not in the education system, in the primary and secretary education system. Our focus is mostly at third and fourth level. But I think through our engagement with STEM access, what we are trying to do is pilot initiatives that, as you say, then we can and should mainstream. So, I mean, for example, working with the Institute of Physics, they've done projects to identify what are those barriers to girls taking physics and chemistry. And I think this is back to the point we're making. I think we know what to do. We now just need to get to the how and getting it done, because I think we are developing or have developed the evidence base. And I do think doing the research, because, you know, we can all have opinions about these things and we'll all have our personal experiences about what we see working and not working in our own way. Not working in our own families or our own communities. But I think it's really important that we build our policies on evidence and we look at that pedagogical research, which shows us what works. And I mean, I think maybe there's been such violent agreement, I think, with the statements here today around what needs to change and what works. What we now need to do is get on and implement that in a more systemic way, as you say, rather than in pockets. But I do think there's a role for that piloting of new initiatives which constantly reach beyond and try to do better. And I think that's, I suppose, what we would aspire to do, particularly for those disadvantaged communities. Yeah, and I completely do agree with that. You know, there has to be the room for piloting. And how you free up that room and free up the resources is by mainstreaming as you go along. And that addresses the inequality, geographical inequality or the socio-economic inequalities as well. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry. OK. Are you OK, Deputy? I will give you another minute or two there. Maybe Emy might come in there. Yes. On the PLC issue, our research has shown that it enhances employment opportunities for young people and it also enhances progression to higher education. But we do find the barriers that the Deputy referred to, that actually in terms of pathways, IOTs as were, we're generally more open to developing specific pathways and to recognising the prior learning of those coming in with PLCs. There's more that could be done at the university level to kind of enhance and enrich those pathways. Thank you. OK. Anybody else? Deputy, have you a further question there? No. I mean, we didn't talk about the backlog. I suppose maybe that's a question for IBEC or ISME in terms of the concerns around the backlog of apprenticeships being the case that we are so short of craft apprenticeships and qualified electricians, plumbers, carpenters and all that at the moment beating into our need for house building and all of that. And just in relation to science again, how we ensure that those who actually do go on to third level to do science, how they then can go on to take up medicine after that. That's probably a bigger conversation. I will call on Ms Costolo, Dr Freeman and the apprenticeships. I will ask Mr O'Donoghue to come in on that. The apprenticeship shortages on your end, Mr O'Donoghue? Yes. OK. I beg first then. Yes. Thank you for the question. Just briefly responding around the apprenticeship issue, I think it's clear that the backlog needs to be addressed, particularly if we're going to tackle some of the challenges which businesses are now facing in the economy. But I think there's also a number of fundamental issues around apprenticeships that we hope that the new national action plan will address for engaging employers in the apprenticeship system to therefore engage more apprenticeships. And it's things like cutting the red tape can sometimes prohibit employers actually engaging and really trying to make it cost friendly and really trying to raise the profile of apprenticeships among employers for some who aren't aware that there are opportunities around finance, there are opportunities around accounting, there are opportunities around cybersecurity. Thank you. OK. Just maybe if somebody would speak specifically to the autistic young people, that would be great, and we'll finish it with that. Thanks. OK. Does Dr Freeman want to come in there? I mean, I'm not sure I'll have anything specific to add on science to medicine. Obviously, the graduate entry medicine is very welcome now because we would, and again, we would be working with the Children's Health Foundation to also look at doctors and other health professionals undertaking research while they're working in medicine. So, I think having more crossover between those two fields is very welcome. Mr O'Donoghue? Yeah. There's some skill shortage, I think it was the question. Yeah. Just the Deputy Conway Walsh's question on apprenticeships. I mean, in terms of the supply side, I mean, COVID hasn't helped this, and it's something that we probably also need to talk to the responsible agencies such as SOLAS and the HEA, but this is such a critical issue in terms of the craft apprenticeships. I'm just looking at figures here from the report that we published yesterday. We need 33,000 housing units. At the moment, we have about 40,000 workers in the sector. We'll need 25,000 in the next five years, and it will peak at 80,000. So, between the Housing for All strategy and the Climate Action Plan, we are going to require huge numbers of workers in this space. And, you know, at one level migration might be part of the answer, but I'd much prefer to see stimulation of apprenticeship opportunities. As I say, COVID probably hasn't helped that, but it's also, and I think this is something Ms. Costolo alluded to, it's the speed which they move through the system as well, and there could be some bureaucratic impediments there. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you.