Éamon Ó Cuív urges action on MABs report into traveller energy poverty

Deputy O'Keefe wishes to discuss the implementation of the MABs report recommendations addressing energy poverty in the travelling community. Mr McGrath, you're dealing with this? I'd like to thank the Minister of State for coming in here this evening. I am a little bit disappointed that the Minister's not here because I thought when this dialogue came together the importance of having the Line Minister for Topical Issues was going to be stressed. There was a report produced by the National Traveller MABs that examined in a very detailed way the fuel poverty experienced by those living in either mobile homes or trailers or caravans. And I have to say it's a very readable and concise report that made very concise and very implementable proposals or suggestions or recommendations. Now I think we have to take this into context. And I'd like to thank the Council for the interest you've shown in the traveller community in facilitating the setting up of an all-party committee to look at traveller issues. But the one thing that keeps jumping out every day at us is they die a lot younger than the rest of us. They suffer much worse health outcomes. But when you drill into that you keep finding that it comes back to basic things like accommodation. It's not that they have less access in many cases to doctors. In fact, an awful lot of travellers will go to doctors much more frequently than the settled population. And therefore, when we want to address this issue of the quality of life they have and also health issues and also mortality issues, you have to look all of the time at the totality of the accommodation issues. And the next thing you have to say is we're not going to solve these accommodation issues overnight and get really good standard accommodation for all travellers. I have a situation in Galway where one halting site hadn't had planning permission even though it was the City Council halting site for the last six or seven years. But they haven't done what they were obliged to do and were told by the board plan on it to do to come up with proper accommodation that would be suitable for the travellers in all of that time. There is no fault, and the travellers were put there by the City Council, there is absolutely no fault attached to the travellers in that particular case. Now, the recommendations were not too many. One, they say, can we have a either rent-to-buy or a rental scheme for quality accommodation in caravans or mobile homes where they are the existing accommodation of travellers. That could be easily since they're a very, very small community and the numbers that live in caravans and trailers is quite a small percentage that in turn that wouldn't be difficult if the will was there. The second one is a very, very simple recommendation that for those living in caravans or trailers that the fuel allowance would be higher than the standard rate of 22.50. Again, it wouldn't be seen in the Department of Social Protection Budget. It just would not be seen as a sum of money but would make a huge difference to those living in trailers or living in caravans or living in mobile homes. The next proposal is where people are sharing a bay and I find this very, very hard to understand. Where you have two caravans in the one bay you only get one fuel allowance between the two families. Minister, tomorrow, that one could be sorted and that's not going to break the Department of Budget. Again, you wouldn't measure it in the expenditure of that Department. And the final one is one that I have to say has really deteriorated in seven or eight years and that is access to discretionary payments where there are particular health issues and where now there's an eight-parage form to be filled up and there is no discretion and where you have to produce so many receipts and so much documentation that it can be very, very difficult particularly for people who have got literacy issues to access the payment. Minister, I hope tonight you're going to say look, we've looked at this and we're not going to deal with this report. Eamon O'Keeb didn't produce it. It was produced by Mab's Traveller and I think you should deal with it. Deputy O'Beeve, Minister. First of all, I'm taking this question on behalf of Minister Regina Doherty and can I say, I can't correlate, in July, the Mab's Travellers published a report addressing energy poverty among travellers living in mobile homes and trailers. This report, which is based on analysis of 65 households last saw some, found that 77% of travellers who live in mobile homes are in energy poverty and spend between five and six times more in energy than the average household. The report contains a number of recommendations which relate to a number of government departments. Minister Doherty has asked her officials to examine the recommendations in the report, specifically in relation to the fuel allowance scheme. This scheme is intended to assist low-income households with their energy costs. It is not intended to meet those costs in full. Since the analysis contained in the report was completed, the Minister has announced as part of Budget 2019 an extension of the fuel allowance scheme by one week, which came into effect in 2019. It is currently a payment of €2,250 per week for 28 weeks, a total of €630 from October to April, paid to over 372,000 low-income households at an estimated cost of €2,400,000 in 2019. In Budget 2020, the Minister increased the fuel allowance by €2 to €24,50 per week. This is an increase of just under 9% and will increase the annual fuel allowance rate for a fuel allowance from €630 to €686. That is a €56 yearly increase, which is due to take effect from January 2020. Specifically, in relation to the recommendation that fuel allowance be paid to families that are sharing single-use bays, I should stress that the fuel allowance can only be paid when the household is on an approved site, publicly or privately owned, with planning permission for the caravan or the mobile home. However, when someone lives in a residence which is without planning permission, such as in the case where an additional mobile home or caravan is placed on a bay designed for single-use, these additional places of residence are not eligible for fuel allowance. The Department also pays an electricity or gas allowance under the Household Benefit Scheme at an estimated cost of €188,219,000. This can provide support to eligible traveller families. In addition to the fuel allowance and the household benefit schemes, her Department provides support under the Supplementary Welfare Allowance, the SWA scheme, which includes a heating supplement. I think it is essential that we recognise this. This supplement may be paid to a person who lives alone or only with a qualified adult or children who has exceptional heating needs due to ill health or infirmity. There is no standard rate for a heating supplement and each payment is awarded to account the individual circumstances of the case. They are therefore providing the flexibility in its administration. There are currently 1,240 recipients of this particular payment. Finally, the exceptional needs payments may be made to meet an exceptional once-off cost which a person is unable to meet from their own resources. This may include exceptional heating costs. In 2018, over 2,400 EMPs at a cost of almost 631,000 were made under the EMP category of heating. To date, in 2019, over 1,200 payments were made at a cost of €354,000. I would advise any persons who are unable to meet their heating costs should contact my Department's Community Welfare Service at their local intro service for assistance. While my Department provides a range of supports that are available to individuals to offset the cost of energy, I also note the report found that only 14% of mobile homes are insulated. Therefore, what is required to address the energy poverty among travellers on a sustainable basis are the report's recommendations related to the need for a state-financed rent or rent-to-buy scheme to provide good quality mobile accommodation for travellers more widely accessible. Thank you. It's a very hard place to heat in a mobile home in the winter. I tell you, it might be fine if you're in Ballybunion for the summer, but it's a very hard place to heat in the winter. And the reality is that it takes an awful lot of time in this state to make very simple decisions. Now, I wouldn't mind if there was significant amount of possible knock-on consequences involved here or significant costs. The budget of the department is about $20,000 million a year. Now, it's very hard for people to get their head around that, but I'll put it in simple terms. $20,000 million a year is equivalent to, if you take out of $20,000, worrying about $0.50 if you have $20,000 in your pocket. It's the same proportion. And, therefore, Minister, to double the payment for those living in trailers and mobile homes would cost about about a half a million euro. not a big sum of money out of a budget of $20,000 million. I was fascinated by what you said about planning permission. Maybe in your answer you will address as to whether if the local authority doesn't have planning permission, it disqualifies the residents put in the halting site from getting the fuel announced. And what justification could the Department have for that particular decision? Because the reality, Minister, this whole thing has just been put on the long finger. We seem to spend more time studying the obvious in this country than making decisions. And, as I said, there's no big knock-on here. And you're just trying to avoid maybe somebody saying that travellers got something. And my answer on that is look at the statistics and tell me that there are a lot of things in life they don't have. And all the statistics point to that. Thank you, Deputy McEyve. Minister, will you conclude, please? Absolutely. And can I just say, first of all, that I accept your point on the traveller accommodation and also the health and mortality issues. Nobody's debating that. So we need to respond to that. And I accept that point. But I did say in my response on my response on behalf of the Minister that we should look at the exceptional needs payments. Also, the option of contacting the local intro office to deal with the heating cost issues. This can be dealt with there. And, of course, on the issue of the local authority and the planning permission issue, that's something that I will bring back to the Minister and also raise with the relevant Minister as well in relation to that particular issue because there is a problem there and I can see that very clearly. But can I also add as well, Cancora, that Minister Owen Murphy, the Minister of Housing, is currently considering the recommendations made by the Expert Group on Traveller Accommodation with the view of implementing appropriate actions and policies that will improve the delivery of Traveller Accommodation nationally and to help to ensure that full use is made of the increasing level of funding available for addressing investment in Traveller Accommodation. The budget is there. We need to roll out that budget and we need support for that plan as well. Thank you. Thank you, Minister. Thank you.