Éamon Ó Cuív demands clarity on Defence Forces pay progress

Minister, the question asked the progress made to date in resolving the low pay issue in the Defence Forces. I suppose the operative word there is progress. I was listening to you earlier addressing a parallel issue to this. It seems there are plenty of commissions but no progress. You might actually give some indication as to when we will see the only progress that makes much difference, and that is pay in people serving the armies and the Defence Forces pockets. You might give me a bit more time here now Chair because I am taking questions 1350 and 276 together. I am not sure we would ever have got to that 276 if it had not been grouped. There are many reasons why individuals may leave the Defence Forces ranging from individual personal circumstances to career opportunities. having fulfilled their contract or retirement on age grounds. The Defence Forces offer significant career opportunities and whilst pay has been highlighted as an issue, there has been significant progress in recent years in this area. Public service pay policy is determined by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform having regard to public sector pay agreements. The Department of Defence does not have discretion to award separate pay increases and I think deputies understand that. The Defence Forces have received pay increases in line with the Public Service Stability Agreement 2018-2020, the most recent of which was a 2% increase on annualised salaries from 1 October 2020. The restoration of the 5% cut in allowances imposed under the financial emergency in the FEMPI legislation was also restored from 1 October 2020. In addition to the general ground of pay increases awarded to public servants, members of the Defence Forces have also benefited from the implementation of increases in Defence Force Allowances as recommended by the Public Service Pay Commission. These include a 10% increase in military service allowance, the restoration of a 10% cut applied to a number of Defence Force Allowances under the Haddington Road Pay Agreement, the restoration of premium rates for weekend security duty allowance, the restoration of a service commitment scheme for pilots. The introduction of a new seagoing service commitment scheme for naval service personnel came into effect on 1 January 2021. This aimed at retaining highly trained and experienced personnel and incentivising seagoing duties within the naval service. The seagoing personnel tax credit of 1,270 was applied in the 2020 tax year for members of the naval service who served 80 days or more at sea on board a naval vessel in 2019. This tax credit has been extended for a further year and increased to 1,500 euros for the 2021 tax year. Negotiations on a new public service agreement were held in late 2020 with public service trade unions and representative associations. A new agreement building momentum, a new public service agreement 2021-2022 has subsequently been ratified by the overwhelming majority of public sector unions. The permanent Defence Force representative associations have yet to ballot their members and accordingly advise the Workplace Relations Commission of formal acceptance or otherwise of this agreement. The agreement provides for further increase in pay to all public servants including members of the Defence Forces should the representative associations advise the WRC of formal acceptance of the agreement. A general round increase of annualised basic salary for all public servants of 1% or 500 euros, whichever is the greater, in October 2021. The Government remains fully committed to addressing pay and conditions in the Defence Forces and this is reflected in the programme for Government. This provided for the establishment of the Defence Forces which was established on the Defence Forces which was established on the 15th of December and the completion of the Commission's work. After the completion of the Commission's work, I will consult with the Minister of Public Expenditure and Reform and the establishment of a permanent pay review body for the Defence Forces. So, what I am saying Deputy is, I know there are problems in terms of addressing pay and conditions to addressing pay and conditions in the Defence Forces and this is reflected in the programme for Government. This provided for the establishment of a Commission on the Defence Forces which was established on the 15th of December and the completion of the Commission's work. And after the completion of the Commission's work, I will consult with the Minister of Public Expenditure and Reform and the establishment of a permanent pay review body for the Defence Forces. So, what I am saying Deputy is, I know there are problems in terms of recruitment and retention across the Defence Forces. I am very aware of that, we are working on that. It is not true to say that there has not been any progress in relation to pay and allowances. There has actually been a lot of progress in lots of areas. We do need to do more in my view and we continue to look at those issues. But we have got to assess the recruitment and retention issues in the round. Yes, pay and allowances is part of that, but there are other factors as well that need to be taken into account. Deputy O'Keefe. We are great at lauding the Defence Forces and we rightly laud the Defence Forces in this country. Premier Mayor. Deputy O'Keefe. Premier Mayor. Premier Mayor. But all of the, most of what you announced there are some special allowances that have been given, and they are allowances. They are not basic pay. But most of the remainder is what has been given to the public service and that does not address the fundamental issue. Minister, you rightly pointed out earlier that the Defence Forces are unique, they are not compatible to the public service in general. For example, they can't strike, you pointed that out, but they don't get overtime either. So they are in a totally different category. And saying that they are as part of the public service agreements, etc., seems to say, well we talk about it all right, but we are not going to recognise that there is a special underlying issue that needs to be addressed here. Sir, you talked about setting up a special group to look at the pay of the Defence Forces. Can you give some indication when that will be set up and when it is likely to give a final report and when decisions will be made on it? So there is a commission on the future of the Defence Forces, which in its remit, in terms of reference, is going to look at pay structures and allowances in the Defence Forces. And then what we have committed to in the Programme for Government Deputy is that when that commission reports to me before the end of the year, on the back of that then I will consult with Minister McGrath, Minister for Public Expenditure, on the setting up of an independent pay review body for the Defence Forces, because of the uniqueness, as you have outlined and as I talked about earlier, of serving in the Defence Forces. Their inability to strike, to get involved in political lobbying and so on. In my view, serving in the Defence Forces is quite unique within the public service and requires an independent pay review body that isn't just going to be there to report on one occasion, it is a permanent pay review body that will assess each year pay issues within and across the Defence Forces. That is what the Government has committed to and I look forward to being able to deliver on that. Deputy O'Keefe. Minister, there was an international ruling given in relation to the fact that PD4 should be allowed to be affiliated with ICTU. Now I don't think anybody wants this to get adjudicated in the court in this country. You mentioned also that you had some difficulty with this. You might outline what the difficulties are and you might also clarify for me whether you are considering changing the age limits in relation to members of the Defence Forces and what do you intend extending those. There are serious issues that need addressing and could you maybe clarify exactly what the problems are? Yes, first of all on the ICTU affiliation thing, I think I need to be a little bit careful with what I say here because there is currently a legal action potentially underway in relation to that. What we are trying to do here is reflect the fact that people who serve in the Defence Forces in many ways are part of a unique service, they take an oath to the state, they commit not to get involved in industrial action and so they are in a different category. We need to make sure that we put structures in place to recognise that they are in a different category and to ensure that people serving the Defence Forces are protected in that context. There are different ways of doing that. DEFORA would contend that the best way of protecting the interests of the Defence Forces is through affiliation with ICTU, particularly around public sector pay negotiations and so on. But there are different views on whether that is the best way to protect the interests of Defence Force personnel, RACO take a different view for example. So we are looking at both, I have an open mind, I haven't ruled out anything. But I do think it is not as straight forward as some people maintain. And in relation to the second issue, we spoke about that a lot earlier in some of the previous questions. We have a review coming close to an end now in terms of retirement age within the Defence Forces and I hope to be able to bring those recommendations soon. Thank you. And. And. And. And. And. Thank you. And. And.