Éamon Ó Cuív urges prompt refugee payments, wants PUBL to act

I thought I saw a memo from the councillor saying that the senior minister is meant to notify if they are not available. No. May I have a minister who has taken the question? Yes, but that is not what the standing order says. It says the senior minister, or the minister in the department, should come in. The question is for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. Unfortunately, we have what we have and the minister has kindly made himself available and is prepared to reply. Yes, but I think the chair should report to the councillor that once again there has been a flagrant disregard for the standing order in relation to topical issues. I will ensure that that is conveyed. Under the standing order, I should have been given the option of either proceeding or waiting until the minister was available. That is the standing order. I do not make the standing orders. The House makes them. Well, we will convey that to the minister and the cancola is being made away with as well. So, Deputy, four minutes. Thank you very much. Half of which is gone. Well, no, that is a matter of procedure. It is not a matter of... Anyway, proceed. Minister, it is a year since the Ukraine war started and a flood of refugees started coming into the country. The last year also saw a huge increase in the number of asylum seekers coming here. My understanding is that somewhere in excess of 85,000 people have either come here from the Ukraine or from other countries seeking refuge in this country. And I have to commend the government, the department and particularly the people of Ireland in the response that they gave to this influx of people. And the way that accommodation was provided right across the state. However, what I have noticed in this country is that we often get the big things right, the big policy right, and that was done. And then we come to the more detailed delivery. We fail abysmally. And I have to say that one thing I think is hugely important to people is that if they take on a burden and the state says they are going to pay them, that they get paid in time. Now, the reality is that the department totally failed to pay people in time. And there are people waiting months, who have huge overheads, who at investment costs are waiting months to get paid. This does not inspire confidence of bankers, who, for many of these people, would be dependent on loans and funders. And it certainly has the huge potential this spring of putting off these contractors from remaining within the system and reverting back to holiday accommodation. And this is going to be particularly acute in the areas of the country that are holiday destinations. So, as I have said, I think it is a very important role of the government to always pay people on time, in time. Prompt payment should be absolutely adhered to. And if the department does not have the capacity to make the payments, they should farm it out to people who do have it. My suggestion is that they ask PUBL, an organisation that is totally controlled by the state, to make these payments because they already successfully were given this devolved function by two departments in relation to the Rural Social Scheme and the Tooth Scheme in relation to paying the wages. And they were paying a large number of wages, it is quite complex, and they did it on time, in time, all the time. And the great thing about it was that that function was actually delivered from PUBL's office in Clifton, in County Galway, which created some very considerable and welcome employment in that neck of the woods. So, Minister, can I suggest, one, that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability Integration and Youth ensure that all centres housing refugees be paid up to date, without delay, as soon as possible. That, in the meantime, a clear outline of the timeline of outstanding payments be given to each provider, they seem not to be able to get that basic information. That the Department expedite the development of a system to ensure that after that, all payments are made monthly, as they should be. And also, finally, that the possibility of devolving this role to PUBL's office in Clifton be pursued immediately. Because always go to somebody who proves, with a track record, that they can do their job. Thank you. Since the outbreak of the war in Ukraine one year ago, the invoking of the temporary protection directive by the European Union shortly afterwards, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability Integration and Youth has worked intensively as part of the cross-governmental response to the Ukraine crisis. The operational challenges brought about by responding to the conflict are significant. Our country has never experienced an influence of displaced persons like the one we have seen over the past 12 months. Numbers seeking international protection have also increased, as the Deputy has said, adding to accommodation capacity issues. Overseeing provision of accommodation on the scale during this timeframe for all those who require it remains immensely challenging. Due to the urgent need to source accommodation, the Department has contracted in excess of 43,000 beds to accommodate beneficiaries of temporary protection, with more than 720 providers, including hotels, guesthouses, B&Bs, hostels, commercials, self-catering, accommodation, scout halls, religious congregations and certain other repurposed settings. The unprecedented demand for accommodation and, by association, the level of transactions involved is significant. With over 750 contractors paid monthly, the payment process is an operation of considerable scale. The Department is obliged to ensure that invoices are correct and, while some are straightforward, many require queries to the provider and additional documentation to confirm what is owed. I am not sure if the suggestion made by the Deputy will help speed things up in any way, given the scale of the challenge we have with us. To provide some context to the scale of the Department's payment activity, from the outset of the war to date, the Department has made in excess of 3,900 payments to a value of over €600 million. The Department spent almost €520 million on Ukraine accommodation and related costs in 2022 alone. Of this, almost €200 million paid out within November and December 2022, including close to 400 transactions in November to the value of €55 million and a further €475 transactions in December to the value of €143 million, which included a number of significant high-value payments. This points to the substantial ramping of payments in recent months. In 2023 to date, 615 payments have been made to the value of €96 million. I acknowledge that due to certain quantum involved, some providers are experiencing delays in receiving payment. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is mindful of the impact and have been proactive in implementing a number of measures to substantially reduce the backlog. As was done for the backlog clearance in December, Minister O'Gorman has doubled the resources dedicated to this task since the start of the year, currently at 20 and increasing. This has begun to make a difference. Furthermore, the Department has just completed a business optimisation process to enable outsourcing options to be pursued and to ensure internal processes are as efficient as they can be, including for all process automation. The Department has already begun outsourcing certain aspects of invoicing work to public agency staff, both work directly on clearing backlog and the backlog to engage with providers on invoicing issues. Officials within the Department have also been investigating the feasibility of using other shared services options, including the team who processed the HAP payments for local authorities and other commercial providers to consider further outsourcing to enable an enduring model which will ensure that, despite the scale of payments, can be made on time. The Department will continue to dedicate internal resources in the short term to clear the backlog and will pause or delay work in other areas in the Department where necessary. I will come back in on a supplementary. The Minister, obviously the money is big, one would not expect otherwise, but the number of providers is actually relatively small, it is 720. I do not accept the argument that suddenly there were queries. I have raised questions on behalf of a number of providers. Every time I raise a question, they come back and say they will be paid very shortly. They will never come back and say, sorry, we raised queries and we did not get replies, or we have outstanding issues that we have to get clarified. They have not said that. I have also had a lot of complaints from providers saying they cannot get hard information as to when they are going to get paid. Now, I find it hard to believe that people who have not, for example, got paid for October and November last year, if there are outstanding queries, are going to answer those queries and ringing TDs up to see where their payments are, rather than answering the queries. But as I said, the light to that is given by the very fact that in the responses from the Department to parliamentary questions on this issue, they inevitably never raise that issue and just cite the amount of work. Now, I have a clear view that people are entitled to payment. Everybody is entitled to payment. It is up to the State to find a way to make the payment. If they did not have the resources within the Department, they should have outsourced it right from the beginning. There are two relevant State agencies. I am not trying to take it out into the private sector, but we have plenty of sections within the State that are used to making large numbers of payments efficiently, on time, in time, all the time. Therefore, Minister, I hope that you will suggest to the Senior Minister that he talks to Pobble and, as I said, to the particularly suitable office in Clifton, we need the jobs, you need the work done, and they always deliver on time, in time, every time. Thank you. I am all good. Again, just to stress the importance of due diligence, and I think that is why there are queries at times. Again, the Minister, as I said, has engaged with Pobble and a team who process HAP payments. Just in relation to the International Protection Accommodation Service, contracts are agreed in terms of capacity for an IPAS centre as specified in the individual contract. Payments under the agreed contracts, inclusive of that, will be made every four weeks as specified. The Deputy has mentioned that. This amounts to an all-inclusive sum in respect to provision of accommodation and all the other services outlined in the agreement. IPAS can confirm that all payments are made four weeks in advance, and as at 28 February, there are currently no outstanding payments to IPAS accommodation providers. The scale of the response and the challenges it presents extend not only to the initial provision of accommodation, but also support and ancillary systems. I have notes of the questions and the PQ and reps that the Deputy has made. I wish to reiterate that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is conscious of the need to expedient payments. I understand the distress and frustration which payment delays can cause providers, and I regret the delays that remain an issue, despite the Department's best efforts. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth continues to pursue improvements and ensure the House and the Department are recording this issue with the highest priority. The Department is committed to maintaining a practice of more timely payments to ensure that all has continued to assist those fleeing this unjust war are paid for their services. Finally, I wish to acknowledge and thank the staff in the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth involved in processing invoices. As mentioned, the scale has been and continues to be significant. Many have worked extended nights and over weekends to assist in reducing the backlog. I want to thank them for their professionalism, their dedication and commitment to helping the PQ as many payments as possible. Thank you. 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