Deputy Mary Lou McDonald - speech from 14 Jul 2020

I have been reluctant in raising the matter of Minister Barry Cowan at Leader's Questions before today. I absolutely accept that everybody makes mistakes, that people learn from those mistakes and that they move on. And we wanted to give the Minister for Agriculture every opportunity to address all of the matters concerned, to draw a line under them. To move on at a time of huge health and economic challenges, not least for the farming community. And last week, Minister Barry Cowan had the opportunity to do just that, by putting all of the facts on the record of the Dáil in relation to his drink driving incident. But unfortunately he has failed to do that. Taoiseach, we now have an unprecedented situation where a Government Minister is disputing the Garda Pulse record of a drink driving offence which he was involved in and looking to have that record changed. Last week in his personal statement, Minister Cowan stated that he was conscious that a constant drip feed of new information can be damaging and destabilising. And he said it was for that reason that he conducted a full examination of all records that he could obtain. And yet here we are, a week later, and the drip feed of new information continues. Taoiseach, on the 4th of July, according to the Sunday Times, contact was made with Minister Cowan regarding the Garda record from the 18th of September 2016. Stating that he sought to evade a Garda checkpoint that was on the evening of the drink driving offence. The Irish Times today quote sources that say that you were made aware of these records at the time of this media query. That is to say the weekend before last. So Taoiseach, can you confirm for the Dáil when you were made aware of the Garda record of Minister Cowan's attempt to evade a Garda checkpoint? Were you aware of this before Minister Cowan made his statement to the Dáil? Did Minister Cowan discuss with you or seek advice from you regarding his decision to seek to amend the record relating to his 2016 drink driving conviction? Do you accept that Minister Cowan's statement to the Dáil was incomplete as it made no mention of this Garda record? When did you inform your coalition partners on all of this? Taoiseach, have you challenged Minister Cowan on his incomplete statement? And do you accept Taoiseach that a Government Minister challenging the accuracy or indeed the truthfulness of a Garda pulse record is a very, very serious matter indeed? Well, first of all, as the Deputy has said, Minister Cowan did come into the Dáil and did publicly admit that he was convicted of a drink driving offence four years ago and that he was penalised for that offence and that justice was meted out in accordance with the charge and in accordance with the offence that he committed. He adamantly and strongly denies any suggestion or implication that he sought to evade any checkpoint and that is his very strong position, and still is. He is very, very concerned that data, which is data related to his personal files, have found their way to others and he feels that's a very serious issue. And irrespective of what side of the house we come from and irrespective of the issue here, that is an issue that at some stage has to be dealt with in terms of and has to be addressed and I'm aware that the Garda Commission has now referred that issue to GSOC and it's one we can't ignore in terms of the, and I'm not apportioning blame anywhere here because I don't know how that material left the Pulse file and ended up to various media outlets or to others, for example. I don't know how the process was. Now, I did speak to Minister Cowan the weekend before last and he adamantly denied any suggestion or implication that he would have evaded or attempted to avoid a checkpoint. Now, at that stage, when someone says I was told, I believe it's a newspaper that says it told and it told my chief of staff or gave information to my chief of staff, but I can't work on the basis of the sources of media. I can't verify without seeing the document myself. Now, I had a lengthy conversation last evening with Minister Cowan. I've also this morning, early this morning, seen, with the permission of Minister Cowan, the actual document itself. But he has made it very clear to me that he wants to pursue both issues through the mechanisms that are available to him to pursue. One, under the Data Protection Commission, he's entitled to seek a correction of that particular record insofar as he believes it doesn't accurately convey what transpired or implications can be taken from it that may not necessarily be the case. And he's pursuing that. And secondly, he feels that the entire issue has become public because of the illegal procurement of the information as far as he's concerned. And again, we now know that that's been investigated. And he feels that his rights have been transgressed in that regard and have been undermined. And he thinks he's entitled, he believes sorry, that he's entitled to due process in relation to both issues. And he has pointed out to me that when it was first put to him, I think by a reporter or media, that he was very taken back by the suggestion that he had sought or that he had turned away from a checkpoint. And he was very adamant about that to me. And that's why, you know, he said there was no issue made of it at the time. There was no reference to it at the time. And that he, you know, he wants to seek to correct that aspect of it. And in that context, he was clear to me that he wants to pursue his legal rights and his entitlements in respect of that. And I have kept both my colleagues in government, the Tóniste and Minister Eamon Ryan fully up-to-date in relation to my conversations with Minister Cowan and in relation to the fact that I have seen the Garda Fáil. I'm not at liberty to disclose it because it's not my property. And I was shared it in that context. And there are risks that's the up-to-date position. I'm very clear that Minister Cowan will have to come before the House and take questions on all of these issues. But for the purposes of today, Theisic, I'm more concerned with what you knew as head of government. And you have confirmed that you did in fact know about the Garda pulse record. That you did in fact know that the allegation was that the Minister had sought to evade a Garda checkpoint. And that you knew that information as or before Minister Cowan was making his statement. I find that extraordinary. That you would stand over a Minister who has made an incomplete statement on a matter of this importance to the Dáil. Were your coalition partners, the leaders of Fine Gael and the Green Party aware of this pulse record? And the allegation of evading a Garda checkpoint at the time that Barry Cowan made this statement. And you've said that you had a conversation with Minister Cowan. But you haven't indicated that you challenged him on the fact that his statement was incomplete. I accept his point on data protection and let that matter be investigated by the appropriate authorities. But that's not the net point here. The net point here is that a Minister is now contradicting a Garda record. A Minister came before the House to make what was to be a complete no holds barred statement on all of the material matters. And he did not state that this Garda pulse record existed and that there was an allegation that he had sought to evade a Garda checkpoint. I mean that's absolutely extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary. It's more extraordinary that as the head of government you would accept that. And I want to know, do your coalition partners similarly accept that Minister Cowan was right to come before the House and not to give us the full information? Do they accept that he is right to challenge the Garda pulse record? And it is an extraordinary thing that you have a government minister now openly contradicting the pulse records. Because let's remember this, this isn't just about Barry Cowan. All of us have to rely on the truthfulness and the accuracy of pulse records, don't we? We all rely on those. The minister has brought that into question. But he has also failed to give a full account of events on that night. You were aware that there was another twist in the tale, and yet it seems you haven't challenged Minister Cowan on that. Do you believe in full and frank statements to this House or do you not, Taoiseach? Taoiseach? Well, first of all, you've drawn two wrong inferences and made two assertions that are incorrect. I was not aware of any of the pulse record. I didn't see the pulse record. Just because a journalist says to somebody, I have a source here, or I have a paper here that says X, I can't work on that basis. I saw the document this morning myself, and actually having seen the document, it's not quite as portrayed, but nonetheless the document is there. No, it's not for me to publish. It's not my record. With respect, no, it's not my record, and people have entitlements here. It's not my record. And don't be making suggestions that are untrue. Deputy Cowan himself was unaware of the record until he actually got possession of it himself in terms of exactly what was on the record. That's the only basis upon which one can comment on any record is when one sees the record. For the last four years he was unaware of any suggestion that that would be on the record. That's his point of view. And I certainly wasn't going to be prejudging or pre-emptive in terms of something until I see the record for myself. And I have seen it early this morning. He saw it himself during the week. He contacted, I believe, the Garrity to get possession of the record, because he didn't have it. Others had it before he had it. And there's an issue there, too, in terms of the individual, any individual in that situation. And he was, I mean, in my view, he didn't want to, in terms of his contribution to the House last week. Again, he hadn't the document and he didn't want to incriminate himself in relation to it. But I think he has really, all I can convey to you is that he has very, very serious concerns about it and how the whole thing has developed in relation to the, how his own personal information was procured or was disseminated from the Pulse record. And that's an issue that he's extremely angry about. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.