Deputy Mary Lou McDonald- speech from 10 May 2022

Thank you, Cairn Comhairle. Taoiseach, speaking on the radio yesterday morning, you described questions regarding the ownership of the new National Maternity Hospital as a red herring. Taoiseach, that's a very unfair characterisation of very genuine concerns, concerns grounded in decades of women's experiences of health care in this state. And your dismissal of these concerns is particularly disappointing, given that your comments pre-empt Eireachtas' examination of the government proposal. The process and the debate to take place this week at the Health Committee and in the Dáil is undermined when the head of government brushes aside the central questions before the scrutiny even begins. Why bother Taoiseach, allowing for scrutiny of the proposals at all, if you present the current deal as a fait accompli, and say that the government will press ahead with the plan, regardless of the outcome of Eireachtas' deliberations? That's the wrong way to deal with this issue Taoiseach. The government proposes to invest between 800 million euros and 1 billion euros of taxpayers' money in the building of a new and much-needed National Maternity Hospital. It simply makes sense that the land on which this hospital is to be built is owned by the state. That means a very clean transaction whereby the land is transferred directly to the state. That was the original plan, so why now instead do we get this convoluted, messy ownership structure? I think the answer to that question is all about the financial power of the land. It's about the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group retaining control of the land so it can use the value of it as leverage for future financial transactions. So it's about private interests of this group trumping the public good and a government that is willing to let this happen. And you can talk all day about the land costing only a tenner a year, but what you don't say is that the St. Vincent's Health Group retains the right to impose a rent of 850,000 euros a year if there is a dispute about the operation of the hospital in the future. And that t-shirt gives the private landlord very significant leverage and control. And it most certainly does not amount to public ownership, as you have claimed. Genuine concerns have also been expressed about the lack of clarity regarding the definition of clinical appropriateness in the legal documents. And while the Minister says that he has legal guarantees, it will be, remember, judges and not politicians who will adjudicate any potential dispute and any legal interpretation of this. So for this and other reasons, the ownership of this site is not a red herring. Everybody wants this new hospital and we want it built quickly, but we need to get it right. So this convoluted, complex ownership model is the wrong footing on which to present. What we need is a public maternity hospital built on public land and this still can be done. So, Taoiseach, I want to put it to you, will you, along with the Taunish and the Minister for Health, now get around the table with St. Vincent's Health Care Group and convince them to transfer the land directly to the state, as was the original plan and the original commitment from the Sisters of Charity. But I first of all say that the one thing that undermines public debate on this issue is honesty of approach. I genuinely say we need honesty and we need a full focus on the facts. And we shouldn't play politics with this because it's too important. It's too important for women's health. It's too important for premature babies that will be born into the future and who need a first-class neonatal facility. And that's what the new hospital will do. It will go from 35 neonatal beds to 50. You won't have the same confinement as we have in the current hospital. The current hospital isn't fit for purpose. Since 2013, this has been mooted. We're now 2022, 2022, nearly nine years later. And you want to delay it another few years. And don't seem to want to get what is a modern maternity hospital built. And it'll take some years yet to get it built once we get sanctioned. But honesty is important in the debate. And for you to come in and suggest that a 300-year lease at a nominal rate of 10 euros a year is somehow not ownership, is being dishonest. I have to be clear about that. I don't like saying this. But there's only so much of nonsense can be accommodated here in respect of the ownership question. The ownership is not an issue here. And if you don't listen to me, that's fine. But listen to the senior midwives of the hospital, who have asked all politicians, government and opposition, to listen to the clinicians in the hospital. And I have the letter here from the senior midwives of the National Maternity Hospital, who are very clear that future service users require and deserve state-of-the-art infrastructure and facilities. And we urge all political parties in government and opposition to listen to the clinical staff delivering the service and to approve this project without further delay. Signed by Mary Bosnan and quite a number of more directors of midwifery and nursing and other assistant directors of midwifery and nursing, which have signed. And these are people who are there at the coalface every day, dealing with the clinical realities, dealing with the unacceptable situation and in this morning's Irish Examiner, there was a column written by Fergus Finlay, for example, a member of the HSE Board, who gave some illustration of the detailed consideration given by the HSE Board and the Audit and Risk Committee of the HSE Board in respect of this hospital and all of the documentation and the guarantees. And he is a person, irrespective of politics, who would not sign off on any deal that would compromise health care for women or indeed that would allow any religious ethos to have any influence whatsoever on a maternity hospital. I would ask you to accept that, Deputy. I mean, 300 years at a tenure a year. And you mentioned the condition. The condition is they have to build a maternity hospital, essentially. And if they... Yeah, but that's what we're all about, building a maternity hospital. What other business have the HSE doing if they're not going to build a maternity hospital here? Or facilitate the construction of a maternity hospital with neonatal? So let's be honest, it's 10 euros for 300 years. That is the deal. It's leasehold. It's not going to be a cardiology hospital. It's not going to be any other type hospital. It's going to be a maternity hospital. So I'm pleading for people to at least read the documentation, not trying to distort it. I'm not saying you've distorted the documentation, but quite a lot have now. And what you've come up with now is, oh, convoluted this and convoluted that. But the bottom line is this. It's not our land. It never was our land. We now have a gift of the land, essentially, 300 years at a tenure a year. That is the reality. And you understand leasehold too. You do, Deputy Cunnan. You know damn well what I'm saying is the truth. It is the truth, what I'm saying. But for politics, for politics and for fighting other battles, there are other battles being fought here through this hospital issue. But I'm just concerned and focused entirely on women and premature babies that will be born into the future. They need the best healthcare we can give them and this is the best opportunity we can take now to give them that. Deputy McDonnell. Well, let's have facts and honesty then, shall we? Hollis Street is certainly not fit for purpose. And it's not fit for purpose, Taoiseach, because of underinvestment by government after government after government. And by the way, it's even worse than just that. It's not just Hollis Street. Because the Rotunda and all of our maternity services are similarly under pressure. And similarly, government after government after government. And what makes it even worse again, is that government after government in the history of this state colluded with religious dogma to deny us as women what we were entitled to by the way of healthcare. So when we raise these questions, legitimate, well-founded questions, in a spirit of honesty, we do that born of bitter, bitter experience and a determination that that will never happen again. Now, you've talked about a tenner a year for 300 years. You're trying to pass that off as public ownership. You say that the land was gifted. The crux of this issue is that the land has not been gifted. Time is up, please. So let me put my question again, Cairn Corlea, to ask the Taoiseach, along with the Tawnishter and the Minister of Health, to go back to the St Vincent's Healthcare Group, who you say have no ulterior motive in the building of this hospital. Let's take them on their word and say to them, make this a clean transaction and gift and transfer that site to the state. And in one fell swoop, all of the concerns are resolved. How about that, Taoiseach? Will you do that, yes or no? It is ownership by the state of this hospital. And you just refuse to accept that and are creating an issue that does not merit the prioritisation that you have given in the context of this debate. Because a 300 year lease at 10 euros a year is ownership by any other name. That is a fact. And anybody who understands anything about property law knows that. No, the real issue is this, the real issue is this, you have instanced in terms of investment in healthcare. We want to make this. This government is in place for two years. This represents a significant advance on what was on the table in 2016 by the previous government in terms of the Mulvey Agreement. So this is a very significant advance in terms of the constitution of the hospital, in terms of the operational licence from the HSE to the hospital, in terms of the representation from the state via the minister, three nominees, and all of the legal guarantees that are there in terms of clinical independence, financial independence and operational independence of the hospital. You know all that. You know all that. But it suits the opposition to delay this project it seems to me at this stage. I don't know other than politics. You are playing politics with every issue that comes before the House Deputy, every issue for whatever it is, you just want to weigh up how can you undermine the government of the day on any issue now. It doesn't even have to be the maternity hospital because you can't have it both ways all of the time. We've got to get moving. We've got to get moving. I think we should get the hospital built. I think it's the best thing to do and we have the guarantees to honour them. The women of Ireland require us to conduct our business in an orderly fashion on their behalf. So I think you need to stop off that. I think in order to send your email tonight and Shay to show you exactly what they were