Joanna Byrne challenged the Department of Education at a committee hearing over the unclear allocation of £19 million for SNAs and the department's repeated contradictions. She pressed ministers on a reported projected overspend and the risk that other departments could face cuts as a result.
Funding clarity and committee concern
Joanna Byrne asked why the Department cannot categorically confirm whether the €19 million is a new funding stream for SNAs, noting contradictory written responses and seeking correspondence between departments. She warned that families and schools remain anxious without transparent answers on where the money will come from.
Budget overspend and potential cuts
Byrne highlighted reporting that the Department may face a full-year overspend of approximately €600 million to £700 million and questioned whether that overspend will be absorbed by other departments. The exchange raised concerns about government budgetary practices and the knock-on effect on other public services.
Local impact in Drogheda and school conditions
She raised the example of Joseph's CBS in Drogheda, detailing leaking roofs, mould, an ageing boiler at low efficiency and buckets collecting rain in the PE hall. Byrne said local schools are also facing rising exam and transport fees and feel snubbed by schemes such as DEIS, and called for a practical pathway to address urgent capital and retrofit needs.
Department response and context
The Department responded by reassuring that no SNAs will be moved and that recruitment plans include the previously announced 1,717 roles plus the 500 posts funded by the officials €19 million. Officials also pointed to increases in pupil numbers and the high proportion of the budget spent on payroll and pensions as drivers of rising costs.
Next steps and oversight
Byrne sought detailed departmental notes for the committee and urged direct contact between the Department and affected schools to identify appropriate funding routes. She warned she would pursue further information, including possible FOI requests, to resolve apparent contradictions and secure clarity for schools and families.
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This is our second engagement in a period of months and I don't think this committee is any clearer on this £19 million for S&As, despite us asking and despite us issuing a written response after a lengthy engagement on this issue at your last hearing and here to my colleague this morning that the responses aren't any clearer. You can't categorically tell us that this is a new funding stream, you tell us it is your understanding, but you can't tell us after two or three months that this is going to be a new funding stream. You can't guarantee us that any other departments won't be cut and this comes in this very week only on Tuesday, Minister Jack Chambers acknowledged that there's a significant challenge in the Department of Education's budget despite a significant rise in funding over the last four years and it was reported last month that there's a projected overspend, in the first quarter of this year it was reported that there will be a projected overspend in your department to the tune of £600 million to £700 million and changes to government's budgetary practices mean that overspends aren't covered by supplementary budgets and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but must be absorbed by other departments. So there's not going to be cuts to your department to cover your overspend, other departments are going to be cut, am I right in that? Look I can't speak for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform but I can respond a little bit to some of what you said there and first of all on the SNAs I have to say that policy position is very clear, no SNA has been moved, so that we have taken policy effect it has been implemented, no SNA will be moved, so just to reassure families and schools in that regard, I think you mentioned an overspend there and you mentioned that maybe it was in a quarter, what was publicly stated I think is regards the full year. No, no it's the full year but I mean we were in the first quarter of this year and already you were projecting a significant overspend of £600 million to £700 million. Our estimates and our predictions on spending have proven to be very, very accurate over the years. This comes four months after a budget, how is this feasible that we're so soon after a budget and we're already seeing projected overspends to massive, massive amounts of money, can you stand here today and tell me that you believe the Department of Education is a well run, well led, well directed by the Minister I might add department when you have so many overspends, year after year after year, this is not a new problem this year, this is a constant and consistent failure by this department in recent years and I have to go one step further to say that I believe you're being particularly evasive to this committee. I asked for correspondence to be provided of conversations and meetings that may have been held between both your department and the Department of Public Expenditure, I asked for them at this last meeting. You issued us a written response saying there was extensive engagement between Ministers in this department, so that's in your department and officials and then you go on to say but no correspondence was exchanged between the relevant departments on this matter as all engagement happened between officials and the relevant Ministers, but you've stated earlier that it's between officials and Ministers in this department, so you're contradicting yourself in that and I believe if I go one step further to FOI these documents that they will return that there was documents, even if it was only scheduled in a meeting which I specifically referenced to include them and they haven't been provided. So we're facing either cuts to your department or cuts to other departments at a time where SNAs are worried, if we look at right across the board the introduction of exam fees, we look at an increase in school transport fees, significant increases in fees, so you're increasing fees and yet you're looking at a budget overspend and this might I add comes at a time where you're looking at my own town, I'm going to be parochial about it, Drogheda schools and community leaders have expressed absolute outrage and devastation that no schools, not one school was included in the new DASH plus funding scheme, despite seven schools in the other end of the county and fair play to them receiving it and they went as far as to say that local principals, this is principals of these schools said it was a de facto demotion for existing DASH schools. So how do people in my area have confidence in the Department of Education when they're being snubbed by government and the department on the provision of badly needed DASH placement in an area that's suffering severe deprivation, they're facing increased exam fees, they're facing increased transport costs and there is no credible security being offered on the basis of SNAs, they're facing increased exam fees, they're facing increased transport costs and there is no credible security being offered on the basis of SNAs because we can't identify where this funding is coming from. So there's a huge amount in there but bear with me and I'll respond to that. First of all as regards, you mentioned SNAs being worried, can I categorically seek to reassure them that they should not be worried? I've clearly said they are not moving any SNAs for next year and also not only will we be employing the 1,717 I talked about the last day but also the 500 that the 19 million is funding. So SNAs or families, children, schools should not be worried about that. You asked me can I be here and state that we are a well-run, well-managed department. I can tell you categorically that you actually don't even have to take my word for it. We've had lots of external examination of our department. The International Monetary Fund reported last year in July of 2025 and said that the education system in Ireland is at the frontier of efficiency when compared with other jurisdictions and other sectors, at the frontier of efficiency in terms of what, in terms of the money that is invested and what we do with it and the outcomes we get. We've also had an organisational capacity review that's not published yet but it will be published in the next couple of months which highlights good management practices. I have an audit committee that is chaired by a former partner of one of the big five management consultancy and audit companies. So that audit committee, independently chaired, I have asked them every year, I've said please scrutinise everything, open books here, scrutinise. The previous chairman was also a partner from one of the big five companies. I have 19 accountants on my staff. Our head of finance is a qualified accountant. Our head of internal is a... So we have lots of assurances of good financial mismanagement. And who does that book stop with? Because this is a consistent problem year on year and it's growing year after year. If we're as efficient, and I'm not doubting your enthusiasm and your response there, but if you are as efficient as you're making out to be, what is the reason for the overspends? And who does that book stop with? Because there is no efficiency in that regard. So Deputy, I have to completely and utterly rebut that there. The reason, as I said, and look I'm happy to provide the information, I mentioned in my opening address that we have 200,000 extra children and young people in the system in the last 20 years. That's a 25% increase. In the last five years we've had 38,000 extra children and young people in the system. So what happens is 86% of my current budget, of our current budget, is spent on payroll and pensions, 86% of my current budget. So that's mostly teachers and SNAs. We have a very rules-based system in education. It's a demand-led system. At the moment, government policy says that for every 23 children in a primary school class, broadly we have one teacher. So there are rules on that, likewise in special ed. For every six children, there's one teacher. So those rules are there. That is established government policy. When demand goes up, we need more teachers. Teachers' salary is set. That's a fixed cost. I can't change that. So when there's more children, as there has been, we need more funding. When there's less children, and we all know probably local schools, small rural schools that close down because they lost a teacher. When the numbers go down, the money that I require goes down. So there is very, very strong evidence that we have needed the money in supplementary budgets over the last number of years to cover for government policy. Can you provide a detailed note on all of that to the committee, just to save time? Absolutely. We have all that detail. I'm just conscious of my time. There's one school in particular I want to raise in regards to the capital end of it. It's in Joseph's CBS in Drogheda. All of their flat roofs and metal roofs have ingress issues. They're leading to black mould, mildew, green moss on all the walls. Despite all of this, they've been refused climate action summer work scheme funding. Things are that bad that they actually have buckets in their PE hall collecting water on bad weather. We have been, and other elected reps in the area have been in contact with ministers as well, asking for guidance on how we proceed. They've been directed back to programs like the Padfinder and the Repower EU, am I pronouncing that right? Yep. But they can't actually avail of that scheme because they've got too many classrooms to be considered, which is a stipulation of that. So despite them highlighting, instead of prioritising schools for retrofitting through this scheme by the number of classrooms, they're asking to do it by carbon emissions and the BEO rating. The reason why they've got a boiler, and I nearly fell over when I seen this boiler myself to be honest, which it runs off gas oil and green diesel. It's 80 years old and it's running at only 65% efficiency. The roofs have no insulation, the asphalt is completely worn away, exposing no waterproof layering and stuff like that. And they can't avail of this scheme because of the size of their classrooms. That needs to be addressed, that needs to be looked at and considered. And they've also asked me to raise the role of teachers in applying for all of these fundings. You've got teachers who are teachers up on roofs, not qualified, and talking to architects and contractors. If there's too many middlemen in the application processes, they would prefer to see that when a complaint is raised or a query is raised or a grant application is raised, that somebody technically qualified from the department comes out to assess. And just, I'm conscious I'm out of time, Chair, the only real light in the end of the tunnel for this school, they believe, is the Pathfinder programme, which we know there's a new round of funding coming out in the months to come, which they have applied for, and they're hopeful that they may be successful. What I would urge is a review of all, they've applied for multiple grants, and I have to commend the assistant principal, Sean Hughes, who has took on the maintenance project in this school over the last two years, applied for multiple grants, been refused by them all, and he's really despaired and at a loss of his speech. So if we could have a specific look at that, if you could revert back to me on that, and maybe with some guidance, if they're not eligible for one thing, we really need to find a pathway forward for this school. It's a massive school, they're very proud of their children, it's colourful, it's warm, but every corner you turn, roofs are leaking, the walls are black with mould, buckets collecting water in bad weather. I might ask Hubert to give you a brief response on that. Thank you, Deputy, and you certainly paint a picture. We are doing an extension project at that school for special needs and special classes, and that's just important to note. In terms of the existing building and the issues there, I think probably the best thing is we can arrange for the department to make direct contact with the school to see what's the appropriate pathway for addressing the issues, because there are various schemes there, and it's to see what's the appropriate way of dealing with that. If you could just keep me included in that, please.
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