Danny Healy-Rae: Pay landowners before Greenway works

Thank you very much, Comhairleach, and Minister, I suppose this is an issue that's been ongoing for a long time, and back in 2014, when the CPO was being moved and being talked about, the Green, the management in Kerry County Council at the time were insisting on the CPO process, both myself, insisting to all the members of Kerry County Council, both myself and John Ahealy-Rae, were totally and absolutely against the CPO process, because the CPO process encapsulates, it gives fierce powers, and I suppose, Minister, I have always believed in ownership. If somebody owns land or owns a house, I believe it is theirs, and that you have to deal with them, buy it or make a deal somewhere or other. The idea that someone can come into your land, take your land as much as they want or need, without any clarity to the owners, to build a road and a cycleway, and that this is completed, finished, open to the public, and that the owners are not yet paid, that's very hurtful to many people, and indeed it is hurtful to me. Where accommodation works are needed, they have to be agreed with the owners, because if you put a road through a field and you've always had the field open for cattle or for sheep, or for silage or for hay or whatever, to get from one side to cross the Greenway as easy as you could for cattle and for tractors or whatever, accommodation works are needed and have to be provided. For Greenway going forward, Minister, I think CPO was not the way to go, because you need to have the goodwill of the people, and people are entitled and can have a different value on different properties, i.e. a site for a child or for themselves, or for whatever other use they may place a significant value other than what people, the people that are dealing with them might think. Because the Greenway sometimes finishes up, and in many cases in this instance, to one's dwelling or outbuildings, many families feel that their privacy is compromised, as they feel very exposed to the public view. There is no doubt that the local businesses in Glynbe, Ruspe, and all the other businesses down to and including Castleveen badly need the perk, the boost that Carnaby needs down there, and that this very scenic Greenway will bring. Any property I ever purchased, Minister, I had to pay for it before I entered it, before I began working it. I can't understand why a Greenway or a piece of land which is to be used as an amenity is not paid for in the same way. Surely a contract should have been drawn up detailing what the land take would be, and the accommodation was needed, and paid the farmer before any work started, and provide evidence of insurance to cover the farmer and the workers, and indeed any visitors, everyone involved. Thank you. Can I thank Deputy Healy-Rae for raising this very important matter, and I'm taking on behalf of the Minister for Transport, and can I begin by just saying on a personal level, a lot of what you've said, I wouldn't disagree with at all. I think you're absolutely right, and I'll come back to that in a minute. The Minister for Transport, as you know, has responsibility for the overall policy and exchequer funding in relation to Greenways. The planning, design, and construction of individual Greenways is a matter for Transport Infrastructure Ireland as the approving authority, and in your case, Deputy Healy-Rae, it's Kerry County Council in terms of the project, and the delivery of South Kerry Greenway is a key priority within the Greenway Programme. It also is a significant project, as you said, you're interested in Glen Bay and Carr Savine, with the 24km route primarily following the oil railway line, and I think over €9 million has been allocated to the project this year, while approximately a further €7 million was allocated to fund the scheme in 2025, and I suppose significant investment underlines the commitment of the Government to the project, and I hear your point about the economic lift it will give the areas you mentioned. I understand that the two sections of the Greenway route have opened in recent months, and that another section will be opened over the summer. This is a positive development and signals Kerry County Council's commitment to progressing this project to delivery. It would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the challenges involved in delivering the scheme, which range from complex engineering issues, involving topography and remediation works, and historical structures, to inflationary pressures and of course land acquisition. The preferred approach in relation to land acquisition from Greenways is to procure required land by voluntary land agreements, and it's my belief that all reasonable efforts should be made to acquire land on a voluntary basis. I do believe also, Deputy Healy-Ray, that it's only the last resort that a compulsory purchase order will be pursued by local authority, and it should only be the last resort in my opinion. And even then, as you said, and I'll come back to that, where a CPO process commences, there should be further engagement through the CPO process to try and reach a voluntary land agreement, and there may not be in some cases, and I have heard that there isn't in some cases, which disappoints me. As we know, CPOs are a long-standing statutory mechanism available to local authorities for public infrastructure projects, and their use is subject to strict legal processes and oversights, and I hear your remarks very clearly about the use of CPOs, and I think you are right. It must be by the will of the people, and there must be engagement, there must be constructive, meaningful talks and conversations with landowners and with people, and that's the only way to proceed. And I have it in my own constituency, Deputy, and in Cork South West, with the Kinsale to Cork, or the Cork to Kinsale Greenway, and I fully agree with you. You must bring people together, not divide and conquer. Kerry County Council have advised that land has been acquired from 138 landowners for the South Kerry Greenway, and as of early this year, in the month of April, compensation, I'm told, has been agreed and paid to 36 landowners. Compensation has been agreed with a further 54 landowners, and these claims are at various stages of the conveniencing process. The average length of time between finalising conveniencing details with landowners and making a payment is five to six months, and I've been advised, Deputy, that it's expected that all of the 54 claims will be paid out this year, barring any unforeseen circumstances and issues. And I would like to confirm to you that funding is available to pay these claims this year on completion of the relevant legal documentation. When completed, 65% of all impacted landowners will have been fully compensated for their land. In 16 cases, no statement of claim has been received from the landowner or the landowner's agent, which is resulting in delays to the process. There are other cases where agreement of landowner's agent fees is also delaying the process. And lastly, three cases have been referred to arbitration and are engaging with the formal process to help bring matters towards a fair and timely resolution. And I've been assured, Deputy Healy-Ray, that Kerry County Council officials are concluding this. This is actually the last one, guys, there's no one behind us. I know the people have to go home, but I'm in the last paragraph. I've been assured that Kerry County Council officials are working closely with remaining local landowners and their agents to finalise the accommodation works and land acquisition payments. As you will appreciate, Deputy Healy-Ray, it is crucial that there's a working relationship with the local authority and our landowners in order to ensure that all claims can be settled. And to conclude, I would encourage all landowners to engage with the project team if they haven't done so already. Thank you very much, Minister, for your very detailed reply. But the first thing that I'll say to you is, before the work starts in any man's land, or woman's, it should be paid for first. And not after. And that they may be paid at a later time, and you're telling me that someone will be paid this year. But what I'm saying to you, don't go into any other man's land without paying them first and agreeing the accommodation works. That's my view on the thing anyway. And to go back to when the CPO process was put in place, because I was there, and I was involved in the council meetings before Christmas, and the officials came back and they said they couldn't agree with six or seven. I begged the manager to send down more help with him, and that I go myself, if needed, to talk to the landowners and to see how those six or seven could be brought along. And when the compulsory acquisition order was being moved and forced, I thought it was only for those six or seven, because I really appreciated that all the rest of them were willing to talk and to go and to agree. But as a last resort, it should have only been the ones that were in trouble, that they had trouble with, and not all of them. Because when we see now the powers that were given, and that people aren't paid till the works are completed, it's also very wrong. And I'm asking not to allow this to happen in any other part of the country, our country that we're talking about. And I'm talking about Kerry. And it's vital that you bring the people, the landowners, where these walkways and sideways are going through, to bring them with you, because you'll always need their goodwill, and to show goodwill to the people that are coming to visit our county. That's very, very important. And I'm asking not to let this happen in any other part of the country. And these people that haven't been paid, and the accommodation are open the air, and they need to be talked to, and assurance, and there's a lot of work to start it out. But I'm begging you to do so, and to ensure that we bring back the goodwill of the people whose lands we're going through, because it's vital to have their goodwill on our side. And the greenway will help everyone. And it is making life difficult for the landowners, but they have to be compensated and seen after. Thank you very much, Minister. Thank you Deputy Healy-Rae. I think, first of all, the first point I'll make is that greenways, as you say, will have significant benefit to the local areas, in terms of, significant benefits beyond the transport sector, in areas such as regional economic development, public health, tourism, climate resistance and connectivity. I think the point you make is that it's important, Deputy Healy-Rae, that we'll have three sections of the greenway open to the public by the summer. Can I restate that it is, and should be, as you said, the primary objective across all proposed greenway schemes is to acquire land on a voluntary basis. And in the Transport Committee in November, TIA committed to reviewing the code this year, and in tandem the government will review the parent greenway document strategy, and I'll come back to that again another day, with you Deputy. The other point I'll make to you is that it is important, that best practice for regional and national greenways, that we don't enter into CPOs as a first resort, that it is the last resort, that there is engagement, there is that connection, as you said, that conversation, and it's voluntary land acquisition. And I do believe, Deputy Healy-Rae, and I would make the point to you, and I would ask you maybe to be that conduit, that Kerry County Council have said it's a priority for them, that they will settle land acquisition arrangements. I hope it will, because they are landowners, and as you said, they are people who have worked hard for the land that they have. Equally, it's important that all lines of communication are open, and that there is an opportunity to be taken here to resolve the matter, to ensure that we see a positive solution that can be achieved for all the people living and working in South Kerry. And I hope we'll see progress, Deputy Healy-Rae, because we need to see that done, because you are right, there's no point in driving and dividing people, it's about bringing people together, and we all benefit from that. And I thank you for raising the matter on behalf of the people of South Kerry. I have at my own consistency, Deputy Healy-Rae, I'm fully aware of the issues that you will raise tonight, and it's one that we need to see common sense in as well, because it's about people, and people in these cases are not looking to cause trouble, looking to protect themselves and do what's best for their communities as well. Thank you.